ADA Compliance and Accessibility with Peter Fischer

James Berges 00:01 
Picture this. You're walking through a bustling university campus. Students rush to classes, professors hurry to lectures, and amidst it all, someone is ensuring that every building, every walkway, and every classroom is accessible to everyone. 

James Berges 00:15 
That someone is Peter Fisher, and he's about to take us on a journey through the world of accessibility planning. 

Peter Fischer 00:25 
Give people a chance and they're going to flourish and, you know, people with disabilities like myself, but we know how to do it. It's the people who don't have the disability that don't know how we do it and shy away. 

Peter Fischer 00:35 
So if we can get rid of that, I think we'd be in a really good place. 

Mai Ling Chan 00:41 
Welcome to the Exceptional Leaders Podcast. I'm Mai Ling Chan, and together with James Berges, we're getting you top tips and resources for building and scaling your disability -focused offerings, straight from the forefront of disability advocacy and leadership. 

Mai Ling Chan 00:59 
Yeah, James, as we're celebrating the 34th anniversary, can't believe that, of the Americans with Disability Act this summer, we're thrilled to welcome Peter Fischer, and he's the Accessibility Compliance Coordinator at Arizona State University. 

Mai Ling Chan 01:12 
Woo -hoo, that's me. I got my master's there. And also owner of Access Architectural. And his story is actually really fascinating from overseeing accessibility in thousands of buildings to navigating a complex world of compliance and innovation. 

Mai Ling Chan 01:27 
And he's been at the forefront of doing this and creating more inclusive spaces over at ASU. 

James Berges 01:31 
Love it. That's amazing you knew him beforehand in this small world that just seems smaller every day, Mai. And in this eye -opening episode, you'll discover the monumental task of retrofitting entire university campuses for accessibility, how Peter's personal experience with rheumatoid arthritis shapes his approach to his work, why automatic doors aren't required by the ADA. 

James Berges 01:53 
I was shocked and I know you were too, Mai. And the delicate balance between budget constraints and accessibility needs, as well as why Peter believes his job should become obsolete, and why that's actually a good thing. 

Mai Ling Chan 02:07 
I just said that the other day, James, to somebody. They're like, you're still doing that podcast? And I was like, yep, people still need to hear this. And someday they're not going to because it's just gonna be universal. 

Mai Ling Chan 02:17 
And that's our favorite word, so universal design. And that's what Peter was referring to is that everyone is going to be doing it all the time and they don't need someone to oversee it. 

James Berges 02:26 
Absolutely. And, you know, that is the universal thing about disability. He also mentions is that it's one of those categories, you know, you see on job applications, you see it everywhere next to are you veteran status, but he mentions it's one of the only categories, if not the only category that we are all going to be part of at some point and you can go in and out of this category. 

James Berges 02:46 
So, you know, it can be disabled if I sprained my wrist and then I can heal. We both wear glasses and one of our former guests, actually, Karen Eppkin, the Jaren technologist mentions how we all will be disabled at some point unless we make more universal inclusive spaces like we're talking about just by the fact that we're getting older, right? 

James Berges 03:09 
So, aging is maybe the one of the top causes of disability. 

Mai Ling Chan 03:15 
Yes. And I got to share actually a little personal family experience that we just had. And for a listener, if you check it out on LinkedIn, I interviewed my husband, Cameron Svendsen, and he just shared about a very, very personal experience with a voice disorder and how that really affected his professional life and his outlook and his emotional balance. 

Mai Ling Chan 03:35 
And it was fascinating. We're still going through it. James getting better every day and getting excited for his book launch, which is coming August 13. Plug, plug. But yeah, go check that out. I think that's really interesting and ironic because I'm a speech -language pathologist and I couldn't just pop in and fix everything, you know? 

James Berges 03:54 
Yeah. Why does that always seem to be the case in these stories? It's like we get affected by the things that are closest to our professions. Maybe it's meant to be in some way. I mean, I'm glad to hear the book is going well. 

James Berges 04:06 
And that's amazing. Now you're a power couple, two authors. Come on. It's amazing. Besides that, that's very fascinating. And what else do you have going on? 

Mai Ling Chan 04:20 
So I'm so excited. This is the time of year when I am looking at my email every morning because I want to see if our submission got accepted. And yay, we did. So for ASHA 2024, which is actually going to be in Seattle this year, and it's after, it's the week after Thanksgiving, which is very different. 

Mai Ling Chan 04:37 
And for our listeners who are speech language pathologists, you know that it's usually those first, second or third weeks in November, right before Thanksgiving. But this year, it's been pushed to the week after Thanksgiving. 

Mai Ling Chan 04:48 
And we got accepted for our panel presentation, and it's called Elevating API Voices Through Stories of Disability Leadership. So I'm really excited for that. But if you're interested, Dr. Lilly Chang and I are also presenting this kind of like this as a live webinar for speechtherapypd .com on July 31. 

Mai Ling Chan 05:07 
So we don't have the whole panel there, it'll just be the two of us. But still, just great ways to connect with the Asian Pacific Islander disability community, in addition to the stories that are available in the book. 

James Berges 05:18 
Amazing. 

Mai Ling Chan 05:19 
So James, what are you up to over at Osmond this summer? 

James Berges 05:22 
Yeah, so those for our listeners, I work full time at a company called Ozmine, and we are creating software for psychiatrists, but also we're researching new mental health treatments. And I know you mentioned a panel presentation, Mei Ling, and it reminded me that we're actually hosting a panel of psychiatrists and neuroscientists and nurse practitioners today right after this. 

James Berges 05:45 
And we're talking about MDMA, which is sort of a controversial topic, but it's getting more mainstream. For those who don't know, MDMA is a street term for ecstasy, the drug that often associated with raves and partying. 

James Berges 06:00 
But what we found in years and years of research, it was buried in research, and now there's a new renaissance of progress, that there's a bipartisan agreement that MDMA or ecstasy, Molly, is helping veterans who are processing PTSD. 

James Berges 06:18 
So that's why it has bipartisan support, because we're always saying support our veterans, and this is a very obvious way to do so. Now, the FDA is actually voting on if we're going to pass this for medical use for trauma in therapy. 

James Berges 06:33 
And there was a big hubbub last month about saying that the science isn't quite there, or the way they conducted research wasn't the right way to do it. But in the meantime, there's so many veterans coming out saying, this has helped me anecdotally. 

James Berges 06:48 
I would rather do this legally than try to do it on the basically underground movement. Either way, I'm going to try to find access to this lifesaving medicine. So it just reminded me, because Peter mentioned that veteran status and disability status, those can often intertwine. 

James Berges 07:05 
And between the ADA and the FDA, sometimes these things progress at a snail's pace, unfortunately. 

Mai Ling Chan 07:13 
Fascinating. Wow. This is really interesting James. Thank you for sharing all of this. 

James Berges 07:18 
Yeah, but you know, the more we share these stories, like we are in this podcast, the more we spread the word, the more positive pressure there are on these conversations with the FDA and the ADA to make lasting change. 

James Berges 07:32 
And so a really easy way to do that is just really share this podcast, have these conversations, leave us a review, it only takes five seconds on your podcast player, and that will help spread the ripple of impact really. 

James Berges 07:45 
So we appreciate you listening. And without further ado, let's get to the interview with Peter Fisher. 

Mai Ling Chan 07:56 
All right, well, I get to go a little far back, not way back, but a little back to my master's college days. And I am speaking with a friend now who works there at Arizona State University. I'm really excited to have Peter Fisher on here with me. 

Mai Ling Chan 08:10 
He is the accessibility compliance coordinator over at Arizona State University. And then he also has a private firm being the owner and operator of Access Architectural. The reason why I asked my friend Peter to join me today is because we are celebrating the Americans with Disabilities Act, the ADA, which was signed into law 34 years ago in the month of July. 

Mai Ling Chan 08:31 
And so I thought this was a perfect time to get Peter on and talk about where we're at these days and what we can do to continue to make a difference. So welcome, Peter. 

Peter Fischer 08:40 
Yeah, thanks. Nice to see you. It's been been a long time. But you know, it's nice to be able to catch up and do these kind of things and talk about the ADA and how it's crazy 34 years old and it feels like it was just yesterday. 

Mai Ling Chan 08:52 
Yeah, excellent. And actually, you and I have not done something publicly together, but we do. We meet every month for our local exceptional leaders group here in Arizona where we're trying to make a difference and create a community of people who are committed to accessibility and equity. 

Mai Ling Chan 09:07 
And yesterday, we also shared that Peter and I met four years ago when he invited me to be a panelist for the ADA celebration as Arizona did an amazing job. And I think you were the one coordinating it all of having presenters and lots of talks around this. 

Peter Fischer 09:25 
Yeah, that was a big project. It was the 30th anniversary. So we wanted to celebrate the different parts of the ADA and where it had gotten us in the last 30 years and, and hopefully what we can do with it in the future. 

Peter Fischer 09:35 
And probably, you know, I guess the best point would be to be nice to have none at all if we did everything right in the first place. So 

Mai Ling Chan 09:43 
We need to get there. We need to get to so your job's obsolete, right? 

Peter Fischer 09:47 
to have to retire on purpose, that'd be great. 

Mai Ling Chan 09:50 
Well, for our listener, can you give just a little bit of history about this historic civil rights law? 

Peter Fischer 09:55 
Jesus, history of it. So I kind of grew up with it. So it's kind of hard for me to remember what it was like before I went into college back in the 90s when the ADA came into play. So 92 to 95 was when it was signed into law and became law and started actually being practiced as what we'd use today. 

Peter Fischer 10:14 
And then it was amended again in 2010, just to bring it up to some better standards, but nothing too substantial. It's a civil rights law. It's most people don't think of it that way. It's not a building code. 

Peter Fischer 10:23 
It's not just a ticket. If you don't put the right parking sign up or, or whatnot, it's a civil rights law that you would have to go to a civil court, either in the state or at the federal level, and sue the business or administration or whatever it might be that you're having an ADA compliance issue with. 

Peter Fischer 10:40 
ADA is not just built environment, either. It is my background that a built environments what I do. But the ADA is also involved with employment, and communications, transportation, and a bunch of other things. 

Peter Fischer 10:54 
Like, like, you know, I'm an architect by trade. So my background's in the built environment with the ADA. 

Mai Ling Chan 11:01 
Thank you. And for our listener, if you listened to some previous episodes, we have done a lot of work to spotlight people in these different areas who are doing so much work in technology, employment, business. 

Mai Ling Chan 11:12 
These are all other areas that Peter brought up, but building, I think it's very exciting. And because I have a personal experience, having been at ASU a couple of years ago for our masters, I can say that, you know, I definitely did recognize the older buildings that were a little more difficult to access, or they had these really, really long onboarding ramps that are, it just feels like, you know, 

Mai Ling Chan 11:37 
there's just been so much more thoughtfulness in the design and things like that. So I would love to, yeah, I'd love to get your, your perspective, especially cause you know, you're the one there on campus making the decisions. 

Mai Ling Chan 11:48 
You know, how do you, how do you make this major shift at a university level? 

Peter Fischer 11:53 
So that's very interesting. ASU made a point back in the 70s, even well before the ADA was even a law, that they wanted accessibility for everybody on all of our campuses. So the buildings were pretty good to start with. 

Peter Fischer 12:06 
I mean, there was a lot of access issues that two, three, four story buildings didn't have elevators. So that was hard to do. Some of those buildings don't exist anymore. That was probably the easiest solution was get rid of them. 

Peter Fischer 12:18 
And I'm happy to actually say, as of this fall, there are zero noncompliant buildings completely on the campus. Like there was one building that wasn't accessible at all. We had to move people around a lot, but that building is no longer. 

Peter Fischer 12:32 
So we're okay with that. 

Mai Ling Chan 12:34 
That's fantastic. Where's my sound clapping thing? I want that. And how many buildings are we talking? 

Peter Fischer 12:40 
Oh, geez, there are like 18 different campuses. So there's got to be thousands of buildings that I'm responsible to be sure that they're compliant with the ADA law. Most of my work, though, is really in the new work, in the renovations, the tenant improvements of the old facilities, building new buildings, starting all these new amazing lab buildings that we've been doing lately. 

Peter Fischer 13:03 
This fall is going to be insane with new buildings. So get out to your campuses in Tempe, West Campus, even out in Pali, over in Mesa. But don't forget, we also have campuses in Washington, D .C. and in Los Angeles now that are pretty big and moving quite well. 

Mai Ling Chan 13:21 
incredible. So I just want to take a step back. You said 18 ,000 buildings that have been under their jurisdiction. 

Peter Fischer 13:26 
it's 18 ,000, but there are thousands of them. I wouldn't be able to keep track of, I do have a list of all of them, but I don't look at them that carefully, you know, I would never get it done. 

Mai Ling Chan 13:38 
What does that look like, Peter, when you have to take a step back again because these are buildings that have been there for a long time? In your early years, getting everyone on board and looking at what needs to be done, what type of changes, architectural, engineering, all of that, what kind of lift is that? 

Peter Fischer 13:55 
Oh, so it's a substantial list. It is many thousands of items list long of deficiency is that we have and that's expected. These are buildings that are that predate the ADA, so they didn't notice to build them properly. 

Peter Fischer 14:08 
But what we do with that list is we rank it, we have a ranking system, and we fix it over time, we fix it as the building is getting remediated, or if it's a major deficiency, we probably already done it, it's already been fixed. 

Peter Fischer 14:22 
Annually, we have a budget that gets thrown at all kinds of deficiencies. And then we also have a project by project list that we work with as well. So when we do improve the building for a new lab or whatever it might be, we also improve other parts of the building to make it more accessible for everyone to use. 

Peter Fischer 14:41 
So just no process, but it still moves. 

Mai Ling Chan 14:45 
Excellent. When we went through COVID, everyone went to online, and you were a ghost town there. How has that changed now that everybody has come back? 

Peter Fischer 14:54 
We never actually completely closed. We were always open to the public even during COVID. So it was a flex system. It didn't change us much. I think what really benefited us in COVID, I need to say that it was a good thing for some. 

Peter Fischer 15:08 
But the disabled population really got the shot. We got to say, we can do work from anywhere. We have a mind. We can do things that doesn't need us to be directly in the building and doing the job. So I think it did help us from the human resources side. 

Peter Fischer 15:25 
It was an eye opener for human resources to go, oh, we can make that accommodation. It's not that big of a deal. I think that's true of anything we do is give people a chance and they're going to flourish. 

Peter Fischer 15:36 
And people with disabilities like myself, we know how to do it. It's the people who don't have the disability that don't know how we do it and shy away. So if we can get rid of that, I think we'd be in a really good place. 

Mai Ling Chan 15:49 
Exactly. And I love that you're sharing your personal connection, right? So you use mobility assistance. And how has that, I mean, this is obvious, but just for our listener, if you can expand, how has that shaped your lens on looking at all of the, this list, you know, that needs to be adjusted? 

Peter Fischer 16:05 
Yeah, so I have a rheumatoid arthritis. I was diagnosed at age four, so it's degenerative. It's gotten worse over time. When you start at age four, you don't realize it's a thing. But now that I'm, I can't believe I'm going to say this, I'm 50. 

Peter Fischer 16:18 
Now that I'm 50, I do use a power wheelchair, and it gets me around. But it's my tool to do things. It's my tool to be active. I think all of us use tools every day in our life, and we just don't realize it. 

Peter Fischer 16:31 
So what is it? Adaptation is the future of all of our lives. So every morning, your eyesight might be slightly different. So you get new prescription in your lenses. Or it's harder to get out of bed so you use a post or a pole to lift yourself out, whatever it might be. 

Peter Fischer 16:47 
Everyone adapts. And I think that's what I learned with my disability. And in the world I work in is we adapt our environment to do what we need to do. And my role as an ADA coordinator or as an accessibility consultant is to, how do we adapt for the majority of people around us? 

Peter Fischer 17:06 
How can I get your listeners to have the best possible building? And I don't know them, but I have to kind of get an idea of how I can make it the best for everyone. It's a hard thing to do, but I think if all of us think that way, if you're a product developer or a computer programmer or whatever your job is, if you think about the blind guy or the deaf woman or the hearing impaired person or whatever it might be, 

Peter Fischer 17:31 
a wheelchair or a crutch or a sprained ankle, we're all disabled at some point in our life, right? So if we think about these people and we do our jobs, we're making a better product, a better world, everything around us. 

Peter Fischer 17:44 
That's kind of how I try to think about the job. 

Mai Ling Chan 17:47 
I love this. Okay, how about the exciting technology that's come about? And it doesn't have to be specific for ASU because I know that you also have a private consulting practice. But like you mentioned, deaf and hearing impaired, hard of hearing, you know, there's these new technologies where it's built into the room to be able to amplify or give people individual systems, you know, or sensory things like about the lights and things like that. 

Mai Ling Chan 18:10 
So, you know, how has that part of your job been changing? 

Peter Fischer 18:14 
There are all kinds of new technologies, but sometimes the best technologies are the really old ones. So like hearing loop systems that are now connected to a lot of hearing aids or T foils. They've been around since the 60s. 

Peter Fischer 18:25 
So some of these best products are we just don't know how to use them, right? Everyone needs education. The more each of us are taught what's out there to do, the better we will be. But it all starts by thinking about the different populations and trying to do the best for them. 

Peter Fischer 18:40 
There's too many technologies for me to try to throw out there for you because everyone thinks they have the next best thing. And maybe it's good. Maybe it's great for that one person, but it might not be good for a global population. 

Peter Fischer 18:51 
And then as an ADA person, compliance is really what I'm looking for. So I am trying to make sure we meet a bare minimum. I try to do better than a bare minimum, but you know, you have to start somewhere. 

Peter Fischer 19:02 
And that's what we deal with. 

Mai Ling Chan 19:05 
Interesting. I'm also thinking about budget and how do you get things past P -A -S -S -E -D, the budget restrictions? 

Peter Fischer 19:16 
on most accommodations, most technologies, most interactions that people with disabilities have to make their life simple or equal to others, they don't cost a lot. You just need to know what they are. 

Peter Fischer 19:29 
I bring the knowledge of what it takes for me to get around a building pretty well, and knowledge is pretty much all I need. Let's say I'm in a classroom situation. I'm a student. I just need to tell the professor, hey, can you prop that door open for me at the beginning and end of class so I don't have to open and close it on my own. 

Peter Fischer 19:47 
Yeah, that's great. That's an easy solution, but it didn't cost me a thing. Maybe it's a doorstop. What's that? A nickel? Who cares, right? An automatic door on the other end, which is not an 88. I want to bring this up actually. 

Peter Fischer 20:01 
The 88 does not require automatic doors anywhere in the country, anywhere in the US at least. 

Mai Ling Chan 20:09 
jaw drop emoji. I know, right? That's what I'm doing right now. 

Peter Fischer 20:12 
Everyone thinks, oh, they belong everywhere. Well, they probably could. They're a great courtesy, but they're not required in anywhere. ASU does have its own standards where we have them at bathrooms and entrances and some other larger locations where autonomy is not as easy. 

Peter Fischer 20:29 
So in a classroom of like 25 to 30 people, it's pretty autonomous of me to go over to you, professor, and say, hey, can you open that door for me? There's only 25 of us in the room. That's pretty easy. 

Peter Fischer 20:39 
Or ask a student, can you make sure that door is open when you come in and I can follow you through it, whatever it is. That's easy. But it went to a classroom of 1 ,000 in one of those grand lecture halls. 

Peter Fischer 20:50 
I don't want to be that one guy who has to have help. So my autonomy is more important there. Same thing with bathrooms. You don't want to have to ask someone to open a bathroom door for you. So that's why we put automatic doors in those situations. 

Peter Fischer 21:02 
They're not required. So that's interesting. And these are the kinds of things that sometimes they're expensive, sometimes they're not. But we have to weigh our options and see what's the best for them, the global population. 

Peter Fischer 21:14 
Again, an automatic door is great for people in wheelchairs or crutches or strollers or a bunch of other things. It's not just the one population, but it's not helpful for our blind person necessarily, or a deaf person. 

Peter Fischer 21:28 
They don't need them. So I don't want to only do physical disabilities. I want to think of everyone. So I got to think about all other technologies too that might be useful as well. 

Mai Ling Chan 21:38 
Excellent. Do you find that you are introduced to the world of innovation in this space? Because there are so many great things that are coming out that are accessible and are universally minded. 

Peter Fischer 21:50 
ASU is number one in innovation. I'm not really sure what that even means, but that's what we are. I don't know. Being introduced to innovation, is it really a way to be introduced to it? It's more of a concept. 

Peter Fischer 22:02 
It's more of a theory. How do you want to be innovative? You want to think of new things and new ways to do it. It doesn't mean it is new. It might be really old. It just, oh yeah, that's a great way to do something. 

Peter Fischer 22:14 
We haven't thought of that in a while. That's all it is. Innovation is a tough one. How do you introduce some of the innovation? I don't know. You just have to be creative. 

Mai Ling Chan 22:23 
And that's the piece that, that's why we need you personally in this type of position, Peter, because you're open -minded, you're flexible. 

Peter Fischer 22:29 
I like that, but I want all of us. I want your listeners. I want you. I want all of us walking around our life, everywhere we go, not just our campuses, right? Think about it. Think about how we can better and innovate for everyone around us. 

Peter Fischer 22:43 
That's what this is about, right? It's not about my role, but I can tell this in all the project managers and design professionals and all the architects that we work with. They need to think of it. I don't want to be the one thinking of it. 

Peter Fischer 22:55 
They need to be. They're the experts in their field. So they just need to be brought that attention. That's all. 

Mai Ling Chan 23:02 
I love that. If you're like me, you can't get enough of books, podcasts, blogs, and other ways to find out how to create, grow, and scale. That's why I brought together 43 disability -focused leaders to give you more of what you're looking for. 

Mai Ling Chan 23:16 
You will hear their stories in three best -selling books, which focus on general offerings, augmentative and alternative communication, and speech -language pathology. I invite you to search for Becoming an Exceptional Leader on Amazon, so you can learn intimate start -up pearls of wisdom, and keep growing your brilliant idea. 

Mai Ling Chan 23:36 
Now, let's get back to our amazing interview. This makes me think of, again, our local community, which is the Exceptional Leaders group in Arizona, and we are bringing together people who are really invested and committed to accessibility and equality in Arizona. 

Mai Ling Chan 23:52 
One of our members is Akriti Gupta, and she is a co -founder of Imanico, which is focused on amplifying the sound and the information in different settings. Usually there are large settings or auditorily distracting settings. 

Mai Ling Chan 24:08 
I know, Peter, that she's working with universities. In this, I know you're saying you have the closed -loop system, but this is something that's innovative and new. I'm thinking that you're exposed to these types of things or types of innovation and having to decide, is this something that we're going to look at at one facility or as a broad stroke, and is that difficult to get through that process? 

Peter Fischer 24:31 
Oh, it's quite difficult. No one ever likes changes and and making new things and adding more layers of work to our tasks and projects, but they're receptive to the idea. Everyone is but you know, everything gets pushed back to some degree. 

Peter Fischer 24:46 
I think what's really fascinating about the exceptional leaders group that you're referring to is we're all different. We all come from different backgrounds and walks of life. And I don't know a lot about the stuff they do. 

Peter Fischer 24:57 
And they probably don't know a lot about what I do. And that's what's going to make it a really amazing group of people. Diversity is great. But we also have to have a common interest. And I think that's what this group does. 

Mai Ling Chan 25:09 
I love that. Again, for our listener, my platform is always that you have to get out of your fishbowl. You know, I am a speech language pathologist, right? And I have a lot of speechy friends and it's been amazing, you know, working with everyone and working on projects. 

Mai Ling Chan 25:22 
But for me, when I, I opened up, you know, my mind to the broader, I guess, community of, let's say rehabilitation, special education, disability, mobility, all of that, my world just really grew. And that's what I think the value is, is that we learn from each other. 

Mai Ling Chan 25:39 
We can collaborate on projects together, you know, lift each other up and help to really share, you know, what we're doing. And so thank you for bringing that up, Peter, because I'm starting the New Exceptional Leaders Network. 

Mai Ling Chan 25:51 
So for our listeners, you can definitely lift me up, Mei -Ling Chan and I'm out there, just a slow start, but I really trying to get people together every month and working on different specific things about business and brand building that is specific to the disability community. 

Mai Ling Chan 26:06 
And, and I think it's just fascinating because there's so much, there's so many questions about business in general, and then it's compounded when you say, you know, we're in this specific niche. And so far we've only had two meetings, but it's been incredible. 

Mai Ling Chan 26:19 
The sharing has been amazing and I'm really, really excited about this. So thanks Peter for bringing me back to that point. 

Peter Fischer 26:26 
Hey, you're great. I was right. And you mentioned the whole concept of college is what you're talking about. When you go to college, it's all about trying new things and meeting new people and being in a different in a different setting and understanding different worlds. 

Peter Fischer 26:41 
That's what's unique about the job on it is I'm working with students, I'm working with faculty or staff, and we're all in the same city of a campus trying for the same type of goals, but they're all extremely different people. 

Peter Fischer 26:55 
And that's what's really unique about. I don't know if everyone gets that in their jobs and I wish get outside your comfort level, right? Get out of that fishbowl and find ways to not just go to work and come home every day. 

Peter Fischer 27:07 
Find those new people and their worlds around you and see how you can how you can benefit from that. 

Mai Ling Chan 27:12 
I love that. So this show focuses on leadership. And yes, you are leading the changes that are going on at ASU, but then you also have your private consulting. And I'm just wondering, how is that different? 

Mai Ling Chan 27:22 
Or is it different at all when you're consulting with specific one on one companies who have different budgets and different perspectives? 

Peter Fischer 27:29 
Yeah, the business side of things is a little bit more stripped, a little bit more straightforward. It's more here my construction drawings for my new residential housing facility or whatever it might be or a new office building. 

Peter Fischer 27:43 
And I just review them for construction compliance, make sure that they meet the standards. They don't want to get sued when they're done. So they want to make sure that they're doing right in the beginning. 

Peter Fischer 27:52 
Architects are amazing people, but they don't know all the ins and outs and details of every single code in the world. So they hire consultants to do that. They hire a plumbing consultant or an electrical one, but they rarely hire one for accessibility compliance. 

Peter Fischer 28:06 
Well, now they can, they can call me they can call there's a few of us in the world. There's not a lot of us. It's a pretty niche market, right? But it's just as important, if not more important, it's your business, you want to be able to have everyone come use your facility. 

Peter Fischer 28:21 
If they don't have great compliance with their, their facilities, then people won't go spend money there. And that's what their end game probably is. So it's a progressive group of people who will consult with me. 

Peter Fischer 28:34 
But that's, that's the kind of people I want to work with. So I like that. Yes. 

Mai Ling Chan 28:39 
Yeah. So this is interesting. I was out to dinner with someone and they were using mobility assistance and I realized I walked up the steps and then there was a button to open the door. 

Peter Fischer 28:51 
My favorite is the sign on the front door that says, the elevator has a key, so come upstairs to get the key. It's like, that's fantastic. Do I always have someone with me that can do that? No, that's not going to be the situation. 

Peter Fischer 29:03 
The sign is fantastic, but it doesn't help me at all. 

Mai Ling Chan 29:07 
Right. Okay, so that makes me move to this big vocabulary word that is making it a, I think it's finally gotten to mainstream. So the word is ableism. So how do you feel about that? Mm hmm. That's a big one, right? 

Peter Fischer 29:20 
It's an old one too. You could teach an entire college class on ableism. I don't like those kind of words. I don't see myself as disabled really. I'm just another guy doing my job, living my life. I'm out in the world, I have my house, I have my family. 

Peter Fischer 29:37 
This is what I am. I'm not ableist or you're not ableist if something happens. I'm not a fan of those kinds of words. I don't do that. I'm not the best person to ask that kind of question. 

Mai Ling Chan 29:49 
I think it's great. Why not? I'm submitting a proposal for a project and it's a very big international company and I had to fill out a profile before I could submit. One of the questions is, do you have a disability? 

Mai Ling Chan 30:03 
For our listener, if you followed me last year, I did get an adult diagnosis of ADHD and it has really changed my life. This was one of the few times, I can't remember another time, where I had to select a box. 

Mai Ling Chan 30:15 
I really thought about it. I was like, so ADHD, is that a disability? I kind of want to know why. I want to know why that. Yeah. Well, I believe there was the fine print under it saying that we support people with disabilities and all of that. 

Mai Ling Chan 30:27 
It's like, I think, are you a veteran? I'm used to saying, no, I'm not a veteran. That was now on there. There is, again, when I say ableism is really making its move, so is neurodiversity, in employment, and employers are looking to make sure that they are open and flexible and inviting. 

Mai Ling Chan 30:50 
That's what I thought of, actually, when I saw the disability box, I was like, well, should I also have a qualifier? Do they want to know a specific type? In the back of my mind, it was, if I say that I have a disability, does that mean that they're not going to accept this? 

Mai Ling Chan 31:05 
Whoa, it was all over the place. 

Peter Fischer 31:08 
I have a lot of questions going through my head. And what I would urge you and your listeners when they see that box is check yes no matter what. No matter what you think, check yes. The reason I say that is you can be disabled at any time in your life. 

Peter Fischer 31:21 
It's the only minority population that you can join and unjoin all the time. You can sprain your ankle or break your wrist, whatever it is. You're temporarily disabled because you're limiting your you're affecting this in your life for that short period of time. 

Peter Fischer 31:39 
What is it? A major life activity is how it's designed. 

Mai Ling Chan 31:42 
Exactly. That's what it said. Do you have a district? Yeah. 

Peter Fischer 31:45 
That's a limit of a major life activity. Well, that's so easy. My, my eyesight limits me occasionally, but not all the time. Then take these things off now. Oh geez, now I don't know what I'm doing. I'm now disabled again, right? 

Mai Ling Chan 31:59 
my glasses. 

Peter Fischer 32:00 
You know, but that's these are the silly words and boxes I'm kind of tired of seeing is we're human. We're all going to be in that spectrum at some point in their life, no matter what the boxes, maybe not veteran. 

Peter Fischer 32:15 
But the reason they put veteran there is for all kinds of legal reasons, you know, tax purposes and other things like that. I don't think that was the purpose of the disabled box and that kind of bothers me. 

Mai Ling Chan 32:26 
That's very interesting. So my husband just shared, he went on a live LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram feed with me for my new show, which is behind the camera. And he shared that he had a voice disorder and how that really limited him. 

Mai Ling Chan 32:42 
And for the first time, literally, I mean, he really hasn't had anything major. It was so difficult. It's such a challenge for his job because he speaks. And it was very limiting. And I said, you had a disability. 

Mai Ling Chan 32:54 
Like you weren't able to do this ability that you typically do. And sharing that was amazing for him. It's also part of our personal journey, our family journey of having gone through the surgery and the rehab, which he could not talk, Peter, for two weeks, and then coming out of that. 

Peter Fischer 33:11 
to that podcast, it was very good, I really, I encourage everyone to listen to that one, that was really good. 

Mai Ling Chan 33:15 
thank you so much. Thanks for listening and for sharing. And we've had so many people that have connected with him afterwards, like emails and texts and saying, you know, like, I've had this happen to me, or we even have someone who's going through the same exact thing, her husband's going through it. 

Mai Ling Chan 33:28 
And that's what I want to share is that we are so connected by the disabilities, right? Like, we don't realize it. We're posting on social media all the great things that are going on. I'm at the beach, I'm doing this, I'm doing that. 

Mai Ling Chan 33:38 
Meanwhile, real life, we're dealing with stuff, you know, whether it's physical, emotional, like all of these different things. And yet we still push through those to do the bigger, making the world a better place goal that we have. 

Peter Fischer 33:51 
Yeah, put those things on social media, though. You're human, you're you're living your life. I'm interested in that, too. I there are times where I'll post a picture of me stuck in the mud or something like that in my wheelchair. 

Peter Fischer 34:02 
Well, that's funny to me. You know, it might be a pain in my ass, but it's still it's still me. You know, it's what happened. Yes. Or I was stuck in my car because someone parked too close to the the hatch space in the middle of the aisle that don't do that. 

Peter Fischer 34:16 
Anyone please just don't do that. Right. But we need to see 

Mai Ling Chan 34:19 
that right yeah you're like oh yeah I parked right next yeah 

Peter Fischer 34:22 
Honestly, I think a lot of people don't realize that yellow hatched out space between the two wheelchair parking spots or whatever the parking spots are. That's for someone's wheelchair ramp or lift to get or to drop them on and off in a wheelchair or whatever their mobility needs are. 

Peter Fischer 34:38 
That's what it's for. It's not for you to park wider if you want to. Wheelchair drivers are just as bad. They park in a damn spot. But I just don't think they understand the logic for what they were used for. 

Peter Fischer 34:50 
Same thing when it comes to big stalls in a bathroom. If I had a public service announcement that could go far and wide, it would be save that big stall for the last choice if you don't need it. If you can use the smaller one, oh, please do so. 

Peter Fischer 35:06 
Because when I show up and that's my only choice, I don't like having to wait just like you wouldn't want to wait. So maybe I can't wait. Who knows, right? So let's leave those bigger stalls for priority use needs when you know you need it. 

Peter Fischer 35:21 
And I get it. Some people need it. I totally understand. But then again, the person in my office who uses it and hears me come in because I'm using a power chair. They know it's me, right? They lift their feet so I can't see who it is. 

Peter Fischer 35:34 
That's not right. And I'm joking that doesn't happen at ASU, but yes, that has happened to me in my past. There was someone I worked with who did that and they did it consistently and it was very humorous to me. 

Peter Fischer 35:48 
But I just made jokes about it whenever I could when I knew they were nearby. It was fun. 

Mai Ling Chan 35:54 
Well, thank you for sharing that because that is how we learn like the real experience of this. Yeah. And so women actually deal with more lines at restrooms than men, right? It's just statistically. 

Mai Ling Chan 36:07 
And there have been times when I've been at an event and I've seen that there, whatever it is, whatever type of event, I've seen that there are more people that are using mobility assistance. And I'll see that handicap stall, that larger stall open, and I'll wait, even though there's people behind me and someone say, you could go. 

Mai Ling Chan 36:23 
And I turn around and I say, well, I'm going to leave it open in case someone comes who needs it. And I wait for the next stall. And that's my choice, but I'm making the whole line. Wait, Peter, like I really am, but I'm, I'm proud of that. 

Peter Fischer 36:34 
the very least look in the line behind you and go oh there I don't see anyone who appears to have that need of it right away I'll use it now if it's a line I get that you know but if it's not a line there's three stalls and you just happen to be the only one in the room at the time why are you picking the big one first you know yeah yeah yeah you're leaving two others but you're not leaving it for everyone some people don't have to yeah 

Mai Ling Chan 36:59 
Okay, I'm falling out of my chair because I couldn't wait to ask this question. Peter and I talked about this beforehand, so for our listener, this is going to be a really interesting one. I want to know what your recommendations for what we can do when we experience inaccessibility in a building, at a facility, or like you said, the parking space. 

Mai Ling Chan 37:15 
I would have been totally passive aggressive and written something snarky and left it on their windshield. 

Peter Fischer 37:20 
Oh, I have one. I'm going to go back to that real quick and then answer your question. Yeah, I used to have business cards that had a picture of the back end of a donkey on it. And it said, this parking space is reserved for the disabled and jackasses. 

Peter Fischer 37:33 
Which one are you? And that was my passive aggressive way of getting, well, not very passive, but you get it. But anyway, so what would I do if I came into a facility that had inaccessible issues for whatever my disability type might be or whatever my needs might be? 

Peter Fischer 37:49 
I would tell someone. You have to tell the people who work there, live there, own it, whatever you think is the right person. And it's going to change, of course, depending on what the issue might be. 

Peter Fischer 38:01 
But you got to tell them, I don't know what's wrong in every single spot of my campus. You know, I don't know when the curt or the sidewalk gets a route, pushes up the sidewalk and makes a bump. You know, I won't know that until someone tells me, or I run into it myself, right? 

Peter Fischer 38:17 
I can't be everywhere. So the more we tell people, the more we help each other out, that's how we do it. And maybe don't just complain, say, I've identified something, I'd like to see what you can do about it, or I've identified this problem, and I know a solution for you. 

Peter Fischer 38:33 
That'd be amazing. Those kinds of things are great. So we don't need a whole bunch of Karens out there, but it's nice to know what's wrong. That's definitely an important feature. 

Mai Ling Chan 38:44 
The other thing, too, is making sure that you're talking to the right person, you know, not the once in a while barista. Yeah, but who knows what that is? 

Peter Fischer 38:50 
How do you find that? That's not an easy answer for sure. It's going to be different in every situation. Maybe it is the barista. Maybe she's the best person for the subject. It could be a simple thing like you can't reach something, but the barista can hand it to you or move that jar closer to the counter where you can reach it. 

Peter Fischer 39:08 
Maybe it is then. Who knows? 

Mai Ling Chan 39:10 
That's great. See, I knew Peter would have a great comeback for this. I don't know if it's great. Just talk to each other. 

Peter Fischer 39:17 
Yeah. Let's just all talk to each other. Let's all communicate. Come on. Let's do it. 

Mai Ling Chan 39:21 
Yeah. How about for bigger things like adult changing stations in restaurants or airlines? I love that one. 

Peter Fischer 39:26 
Adult changing tables is actually close to me. It's close to my heart. I have a very good friend who was one of the women who wrote the bill in the state of Arizona to have adult changing tables, or what we call universal changing tables, installed in any state or federal government building in Arizona. 

Peter Fischer 39:45 
Now, it's not true everywhere yet, but it's coming. ASU is a state facility, so we had to comply by this rule. I love them. They're bigger. They're longer. They're the same where they're just longer. 

Peter Fischer 39:57 
It's a nice, clean, healthy space for a caregiver and an adult person with a disability who has those needs to take care of themselves. Without them, they're on the floor. That could be dirty and gross, or they're in their car. 

Peter Fischer 40:16 
Right now, it's 112 degrees outside. I'm not going to want to change someone in 112 degree heat in a car. That would be horrible. Why are we putting people through this situation when we have a relatively simple solution? 

Peter Fischer 40:30 
You don't have to have both a little changing table and a big one. You just have to have one of the large ones in one facility in the building. It's not a tough rule to follow, and I like to put them where they're going to be used the most. 

Peter Fischer 40:46 
At ASU, for example, we put them in a unisex or gender neutral bathroom near a large lecture hall or a large building that has a conference room or whatever the bigger spaces would be, more the public spaces, because then everyone gets to use it. 

Peter Fischer 41:02 
I think they're very beneficial. I think they're quite nice to have. Sky Harbor Airport in Phoenix was one of the very first places in the country to ever build one. They had theirs built in. They're in the corner of some of the gender neutral bathrooms. 

Peter Fischer 41:16 
That was just a pet peeve of their architect at the time. He really liked that people should be able to lay down and change when they get off an airplane and put clean clothes on. They also benefit disabled persons. 

Peter Fischer 41:31 
I can change pretty easily on my own, but it's kind of nice to stretch out. I think we've all been to changing rooms and department stores. A little stool isn't nearly as nice to have as a session there. 

Peter Fischer 41:45 
Let's have a bit of bench to use. Let's do that. That's more universal. The more universal we are, the more beneficial we are to everybody. That's also a nice reason to have these kinds of tables. 

Mai Ling Chan 41:58 
Excellent. Excellent. Well, Peter, I know this is great. It's just Mike dropped on that. I just want to thank you. This was the perfect interview to commemorate the 34th anniversary of the ADA. And I personally am so honored to be connected with you, Peter. 

Mai Ling Chan 42:13 
I learned so much. I'm so glad that our listener got to meet you today. How can we get in touch with you or stay in touch with you? 

Peter Fischer 42:19 
You guys can throw my email out there. It's a P Fisher F A S C H E R at ASU dot edu That's probably the best way to catch me. Email is always good I think what I really want to end with though is we've had 88 for 34 years and we've gotten nowhere and It kind of makes you wonder why have we done? 

Peter Fischer 42:37 
Why do we still have problems? How could we go 34 years and still have problems? There's no such thing as a grandfather pause in the ADA If you can fix it we're supposed to that's that's it, you know, why wouldn't we is more the point and 34 years down the road. 

Peter Fischer 42:55 
We probably should have a new amendment to it and change things and make it more robust Automatic doors should be everywhere, right? It shouldn't be just an option But there's so much stuff that we could do and there's so much that you and your listeners and everyone around us If we just stop and think we don't need an ADA if we do it really well We don't need one at all. 

Peter Fischer 43:15 
Let's just be good. Let's just do things Inclusively and think about everyone as we do our jobs 

Mai Ling Chan 43:21 
Excellent. Thank you so much, Peter. 

Peter Fischer 43:23 
That was awesome, I really appreciate this. 

Mai Ling Chan 43:26 
We hope you enjoyed this episode and invite you to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and share the show with people you think will find value from it. This helps the show a lot. Or have a great guest referral, reach out to us at xleaders at gmail .com. 

Speaker 4 43:42 
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