Aphasia In Chinese Speakers with Anthony Kong

James Berges 00:00 
Did you know that aphasia affects over 2 million people in the United States alone, but only a fraction of aphasia studies account for bilingual individuals? This is a striking oversight given that more than half of the world's population is bilingual. 

James Berges 00:11 
Well, today, in honor of Aphasia Awareness Month, we're speaking with Anthony Kong, a pioneer in the field of bilingual aphasia research with a focus on Chinese or Cantonese speakers. If you're a language and neuroscience nerd like us, stick around, you're not going to want to miss this. 

Anthony Kong 00:32 
The unique linguistic features of Chinese will lead to different manifestations of the symptoms in Chinese speakers. In other words, you know, it will, I mean, the condition of Asia will actually affect language processing in a different way compared to those who speak English. 

Mai Ling Chan 00:51 
Welcome to the Exceptional Leaders Podcast. I'm Mai Ling Chan, and together with James Berges, we're getting you top tips and resources for building and scaling your disability -focused offerings straight from the forefront of disability advocacy and leadership. 

James Berges 01:10 
Aphasia is a language disorder that affects your ability to express yourself, usually caused by stroke or traumatic brain injury, and can manifest differently depending on the part of your brain it's in and if you're bilingual. 

Anthony Kong 01:21 
So for example, you could have Broca's aphasia on the left hemisphere, you know what you want to say but you can't get it out, simplifying it a bit. But the right side is the Wernicke's aphasia which can affect your comprehension where you feel like you're saying something and you have the tonality there but you just aren't quite making sensical speech and language so it could be very difficult to treat but luckily we have aphasiologists like Anthony Kong who are not only looking at aphasia but are looking at it through a multilingual lens. 

Mai Ling Chan 01:53 
Excellent. This was a very interesting interview for me, James, because I had worked with Anthony Kong as one of my co -authors for my recent book, Becoming an Exceptional API Leader, that launched out in February. 

Mai Ling Chan 02:05 
And when he was writing his story, and I read it for the first time, I was just amazed because I know obviously a lot about aphasia, because we're speech -language pathologists, and I've been exposed to many different dialects of the Chinese language, so Mandarin, Cantonese, and Shanghainese. 

Mai Ling Chan 02:22 
That's what my grandfather spoke. And in understanding the niche that Anthony is working on, it really brought up a lot of questions for me. And it's so very interesting to think about. And you gave us a nice overview of what aphasia is and where it's affected in the brain. 

Mai Ling Chan 02:40 
But for our listener, I don't know how much understanding you have of the different Chinese languages. So I'm sure that you know Mandarin is the most popular one. But depending on where you live, there are all these different dialects. 

Mai Ling Chan 02:53 
And I can't remember how many Anthony says, but there's so many different dialects in China. And each of those different languages have different components to them. One of them is the words. And so James also was talking about understanding words and speaking words are different parts of the brain. 

Mai Ling Chan 03:09 
But then there's a tonality that goes with it. And James, I know you heard him talk about that. There might be different sounds that you make with saying a word where it's like sing -songy, but that actually changes the word. 

Mai Ling Chan 03:22 
Do you remember that part? 

James Berges 03:24 
Yeah. And I mean, I think it's hard enough to learn Cantonese or Mandarin on its own for that reason. And I can't imagine having a stroke and having to refigure that out. 

Mai Ling Chan 03:34 
Exactly. And that's the space that Anthony is in where he is an absolute pioneer. I mean, we're using this word pioneering in aphasia, which is actually something that's been around for a long time. It's kind of like being a pioneer in dysphagia, but people did that years ago too, you know, and have really given us a fresh look on a diagnosis and strategies that, you know, have been around a long time. 

Mai Ling Chan 03:53 
So that's what we're saying. That's why his work is so unique and interesting because he's looking at an area that was so underserved because of all of the different dialects available. And then on top of that, he talks about the written version, which also is affected when you have aphasia that you will have difficulty reading words and understanding the words. 

Mai Ling Chan 04:14 
And in these Asian dialects and languages, there are so many symbols for the words. And so that's a whole other area. And so one of the things that Anthony talked about was the absolute need for materials, for written materials, and how can you create that with all of the words that there are and all of the dialects. 

Mai Ling Chan 04:36 
And like even saying this right now, I'm just amazed at the area that he's focused on. 

James Berges 04:42 
Yeah, and sort of a side note, but related, I remember in grad school learning about there's different dialects of Japanese. I can't remember the exact names now, but these interactions with not just aphasia, but dyslexia, where if you have symbols that contain a whole word or whole concept within one symbol, you might have lower rates of dyslexia versus ones that are more phonetic, like more closer to English, for example, that have multiple letters to represent a concept, because there's just more room for error. 

James Berges 05:11 
Or in Spanish, you can have more problems with that because, or less sorry, because you have more phonetic sounds that are just one to one correlations. So without getting too in the weeds, it's just a fascinating area to look at how language interacts with different disabilities and language disorders. 

James Berges 05:30 
And you're going to love this interview. And he shares how we got into his leadership positions. But before right before we get into that interview, do you want to announce a quick news update? We're happy to say we got runner up as AAC podcast of the year. 

James Berges 05:45 
And this was run by Connect by open AAC. They're an organization and they had people vote. And so thank you so much to everyone who voted for exceptional leaders as AAC podcast of the year, we almost won. 

James Berges 05:58 
And congrats to winner. It just reaffirms the work we do here. And we appreciate that we're not just speaking into the void. And, you know, go leave us a review. It helps us out share this episode with one more person and keep on keeping on. 

James Berges 06:14 
So without further ado, let's get to the interview with Anthony Kong. 

Mai Ling Chan 06:19 
All right. Okay. Well, it's a really early morning for me here in Phoenix, Arizona, because I needed to catch Anthony Kong, who is in Hong Kong. And so I was up at 515 this morning. So if you hear me voice clearing or sound a little nasally, I apologize. 

Mai Ling Chan 06:37 
I am dealing with some spring allergies. But I am here. It's 6am. And we have Dr. Anthony Kong. So welcome. How are you today? 

Anthony Kong 06:46 
I am great. Thank you for having me and thank you for waking up so early for this. 

Mai Ling Chan 06:51 
Thank you for staying up late. This is so great. So I've had the pleasure of working with Anthony for, wow, almost a year on doing our book. And I'm so excited to have him on the podcast because when I read his story, I immediately knew that I wanted to have him on the show and have him share his journey as a disability leader in a very unique niche space of speech language pathology. 

Mai Ling Chan 07:16 
So we're gonna be talking today about aphasia, which is a diagnosis. And we're gonna talk a little bit about what that is and how you can acquire it so that our listeners, so that you can get caught up here. 

Mai Ling Chan 07:28 
But we're also gonna be talking with Anthony about really becoming a leader, which I know he doesn't use that term, in an area that is underserved and new. And I know that that is a lot of times what we end up doing because we see a need and we fill it. 

Mai Ling Chan 07:43 
And so this is a very unique conversation for me because I get to kind of geek out a little bit on my own profession. So let's get to it, Anthony. And I think the first step is to talk about, I know you're Hong Kong based, but can you tell us how did you end up there? 

Anthony Kong 07:59 
Well, I actually completed my bachelor in speech and hearing sciences at the University of Hong Kong. And then I moved on to complete my PhD in the same institution, also working on aphasia. And then I worked as a clinician for a year before I actually moved to Florida. 

Anthony Kong 08:20 
And I started my academic career there at the University of Central Florida. After about 15 years, during a very interesting time, COVID -19, I have decided to come back to Hong Kong because it was a very interesting time. 

Anthony Kong 08:40 
And I thought my priority was different at that time because of all those sudden changes that we all faced, and especially the challenges that we had. So it's now my third year in Hong Kong. 

Mai Ling Chan 08:53 
Thank you for sharing that because it's a very unique journey and going through that time period, we all had to make some really big decisions and it's very interesting how you've gone on your path. Okay, so I said this word aphasia. 

Mai Ling Chan 09:06 
Some of us as speech -language pathologists who are listening, we know it, but there are definitely a lot of our audience who don't. So can you share a little bit about what that is? 

Anthony Kong 09:14 
Sure. So aphasia is actually a disorder affecting someone's ability to communicate, including maybe speaking, understanding the oral language, reading, as well as writing. And it usually results from damage to the language processing area of the brain. 

Anthony Kong 09:34 
And that's typically the left side of the brain. And some common causes of aphasia can include stroke, brain injury, or brain tumors. 

Mai Ling Chan 09:45 
Interesting. So just as you do in the medical profession, we can choose to deep dive and become an expert in certain areas. And so Anthony is obviously an expert in this area. And the reason I have him on the show today is not only because he's an expert in aphasia, and it is aphasia awareness month in June. 

Mai Ling Chan 10:04 
So thank you for representing during this time. But also because this area is more of an enigma when you leave the United States and you have so many different dialects and forms of language. So I'm going to talk just a little bit about that for our listener in kind of layman's terms. 

Mai Ling Chan 10:23 
So we say dialects, we can have different dialects in English. And I would say like I have a Jersey accent and my Jersey accent would be coffee and talk. That's not a dialect. The dialect comes in when we actually use different words for the same concepts or objects or things like that. 

Mai Ling Chan 10:41 
The vocabulary changes. So if we go Southern, there are definitely different terms that people will use. And I'm sorry, I can't give you examples of that. But I know that I have been in situations within the United States where I am not understanding what someone is saying because of the different vocabulary that they're using. 

Mai Ling Chan 10:58 
And so now we're going to deep dive into the Chinese language, which is fascinating because for people who don't know or aren't as familiar, you would say, oh, he's speaking Chinese. And that is true. 

Mai Ling Chan 11:12 
But then there are so many dialects. And so now I'm going to geek out as a listener. And I'm just going to let Anthony talk about this whole area. So go ahead. 

Anthony Kong 11:21 
Sure. So Chinese is quite unique because mainly when you were explaining dialects in English, people will immediately think of, oh, maybe a different accent, the use of different vocabularies. But in the case of Chinese, it's almost like different languages for people who are not the native speaker of a particular dialect. 

Anthony Kong 11:43 
In other words, they can be quite different in terms of X -backs. So articulation is one of them, like the phonology or how the dialect sounds, the choice of words. To a certain extent, you know how words are kind of linked together. 

Anthony Kong 11:59 
So like the syntax or like the grammar of the dialects can also vary. So this actually makes it very interesting because Chinese is actually known for a more flexible word order than English. 

Mai Ling Chan 12:12 
Can you expand on that? Because I grew up in a home where my grandparents both lived with me, they were Chinese, and one spoke Cantonese, and the other one spoke Shanghainese. And I actually can't tell the difference. 

Mai Ling Chan 12:24 
I just know when I talk to grandma, I say this, when I talk to grandpa, I say that. And I'm kind of like a little old lady because I don't know Mandarin, which is the more popular one. But I do know that there was like flipping of the verbs, you know, so we would just say, I go to the store. 

Mai Ling Chan 12:39 
And when I would say things to them, it was not in that order. So can you just expand a little bit? 

Anthony Kong 12:45 
Sure, I think a very good example will be the difference between Cantonese and many other different dialects like Mandarin or Shanghainese, because in Cantonese, there is actually a oral version and also a, or what we call the spoken version and a written version. 

Anthony Kong 13:00 
But in most other Chinese dialects, there is only one version, which is going to be the same for both the spoken form and the written form. So in the case of Cantonese, there are some terms or some ways of saying things that we don't really typically write in formal languages. 

Anthony Kong 13:18 
And it's actually vice versa for the other way round. So you typically in more formal communication, you will use written form and then it's typically more polite, it's more formal, but you don't really kind of use the written format. 

Anthony Kong 13:35 
You don't speak it out in your typical conversation. So those types of differences are quite unique and it's not happening in every single dialects of Chinese. I mean, I myself speak a few dialects, Cantonese, Mandarin and Tuishanese, but as a native speaker of Chinese, I think what I can pick from when I'm hearing different dialects is that they sound very differently. 

Anthony Kong 14:01 
The stress can be quite different depending on the dialect. And also I think when you kind of pay attention to words that are kind of similar in sounds, but they're actually totally different in terms of the meaning, I think those are very, very interesting. 

Mai Ling Chan 14:20 
So this brings me to the classic example, what I want to focus on is intonation. So Anthony is talking about when they speak a word, the stress and the tone of it can change. And so like I can say tomorrow or tomorrow, right? 

Mai Ling Chan 14:34 
And so now we have two different, is it a question or is it a statement? The classic one, and if you can clarify, I know the one is Ma. Can you share that one with us, Anthony? 

Anthony Kong 14:43 
So, I think, you know, the general principles, like, you know, the questions versus statement type of threads still apply. But then, in certain dialects, I think, and also depending on the geographical location and people's, like, culture, people may choose sometimes to have a more gentle intonation, like the case in Taiwan or in Singapore, versus maybe in mainland China, even though we're speaking the same Pudongkua or Mandarin dialect, they sound a little bit more rough and a little bit different, so to speak. 

Anthony Kong 15:23 
But I think, you know, that also kind of tells, you know, how geographical difference can also play a role in, you know, how we make sense of different dialects. And, you know, when there is, when you're talking about tonal languages, like in the case of Chinese, there are different ways of pronouncing a word, which you put a different type of stress, and the word will actually mean a different meaning. 

Anthony Kong 15:48 
For example, ma will be like a question word in Mandarin, but ma will be like, you know, the animal horse. So there are four different tones in Mandarin or Pudongkua, but in Cantonese, there are nine of them. 

Anthony Kong 16:03 
So it's actually more interesting and more challenging for Westerners. 

Mai Ling Chan 16:08 
Wow. Okay, so for our listener, hopefully you've gotten a high -level understanding of the just the delicacy, the intricacy, the detail that goes into Chinese languages. So now, Anthony, if you can help to shape what is it that you are doing and why is the work so important? 

Anthony Kong 16:28 
So my work has been focusing on Chinese aphasia in the past 15 to 20 years. And one thing that I was particularly interested in is how I am fascinated by human brain, how the human brain works. I mean, aphasia is a very complex disorder that involves the disruption of language processing in the brain. 

Anthony Kong 16:52 
And those who have a passion for language and communication may be intrigued by the challenges of aphasia and are motivated to study and understand it. And that's basically why I have been so interested in this area. 

Anthony Kong 17:08 
And not to mention that to begin with, as a student, I was very interested in several disciplines, including medicine, linguistics, psychology, and neurosciences. And technology or communication sciences and disorder is a very good mix of all of this, above -mentioned disciplines. 

Anthony Kong 17:30 
So this is actually why I chose to study speech pathology or speech language pathology as a student. And with the clinical exposure and with the encouragement from my mentor, I decided to maybe work on something that will eventually allow us to better understand this condition in Chinese and also how we can eventually help those with this condition. 

Mai Ling Chan 17:55 
excellent. If you're like me, you can't get enough of books, podcasts, blogs, and other ways to find out how to create, grow, and scale. That's why I brought together 43 disability -focused leaders to give you more of what you're looking for. 

Mai Ling Chan 18:09 
You will hear their stories in three best -selling books, which focus on general offerings, augmentative and alternative communication, and speech -language pathology. I invite you to search for Becoming an Exceptional Leader on Amazon so you can learn intimate startup pearls of wisdom and keep growing your brilliant idea. 

Mai Ling Chan 18:30 
Now let's get back to our amazing interview. So then what makes the area of the Chinese language so special and unique? 

Anthony Kong 18:38 
I think there are several unique challenges when it comes to Chinese aphasia compared to other languages, especially in English, which is well established, well researched, and that has to do with maybe the complexity of the Chinese system that we have briefly talked about. 

Anthony Kong 18:59 
For example, you know, the unique linguistic features of Chinese will lead to different manifestations of the symptoms in Chinese speakers. In other words, you know, it will, I mean, the condition of aphasia will actually affect language processing in a different way compared to those who speak English. 

Anthony Kong 19:20 
So like what I mentioned earlier, Chinese is a tonal language, so the meaning of a word can change depending on the tongue that we use to pronounce it. Chinese has a more flexible word order than English. 

Anthony Kong 19:33 
So this can influence the manifestation of the aphasic symptoms again in the sentence construction. This can also affect how people like understand, you know, certain type of sentences in Chinese, and these different patterns of grammatical errors compared to the English speakers will reflect the distinctive, you know, grammar or grammatical rules in both languages. 

Anthony Kong 20:01 
And also, another interesting thing about Chinese is the writing system. So it is a logographic writing system, meaning that we use characters, we use more pictorial symbols to represent the meaning or the unit of a meaning in our written language. 

Anthony Kong 20:22 
And there are actually over 50 ,000 characters in Chinese language. 

Mai Ling Chan 20:27 
That's amazing. That's amazing. And we have how many letters? 

Anthony Kong 20:32 
Twenty -six. 

Mai Ling Chan 20:33 
26 exactly 

Anthony Kong 20:34 
Yeah, and and well, actually, out of those 50 ,000 characters in Chinese, only about 20 ,000 of them are more commonly used in modern days, but still is a lot of words. And a lot of them are just like arbitrary, you need to kind of memorize this character is about this meaning, or you need to kind of do that matching through repetitive learning and exposure. 

Anthony Kong 20:57 
So this, again, makes it more challenging for individuals with aphasia to recognize and recall characters, as well as to produce them, you know, in the written format in the written communication. 

Mai Ling Chan 21:12 
Yes. And again, I just want to jump in for clarification. So when someone who speaks English has a traumatic neurological event and is experiencing aphasia and we are working on reading, they still have the tools to be able to break down words phonetically, or they may still be able to have these tools. 

Mai Ling Chan 21:29 
And so seeing a word like, let's say, go, you know, knowing that the G has the G sound and the O could be O or A, you know, there are still those tools that we can build on. What Anthony is talking about is them having to have 20 ,000 characters memorized. 

Mai Ling Chan 21:46 
And so when they see it, they are able to pull out not only the word, but then also be able to pronounce and have the correct tone. So now that they can, they recognize the word, they know the meaning of the word, they can pronounce the word, but the tone is off. 

Mai Ling Chan 22:02 
It's a different word. Am I correct, Anthony? 

Anthony Kong 22:05 
Correct, correct. But to certain extent, in our Chinese characters, there are still these two components that can kind of give us a hint of the sound and the meaning of the word. For example, there is a what we call the phonetic radical, which is usually one side or, you know, maybe the first half of the character that will give you some phonetic information or the information about the sound of that word. 

Anthony Kong 22:34 
So similarly, we have this semantic radical, which is basically helping us to get the information about the meaning of that particular word. So in combination of the phonetic and the semantic radical, we'll be able to actually process the character in a more meaningful way. 

Anthony Kong 22:55 
However, unlike English, what we call as a very transparent language, meaning that, you know, there is a very consistent rule of, you know, the particular sound associated with a particular letter or the combination of two or three letters, this phonetic or semantic radicals are not that consistent. 

Anthony Kong 23:15 
So there are some discrepancies in terms of how successful one can use those, you know, information about the radical and semantic radicals to actually guess the meaning in especially in the case of people with aphasia, where, you know, they have the impaired, you know, ability to actually process all these different materials in the brain is a more challenging process for them. 

Mai Ling Chan 23:41 
Amazing. Okay, so you and I met through Dr. Lily Cheng because she highly recommended you as a co -author for our most recent book Which is becoming an exceptional API leader Asian Pacific Islander leader And when I read your chapter, I have the absolute honor of usually being one of the first people to read that first draft I just wanted to tell you that I was on the edge of my seat as I am right now and maybe our listener is too You know just going wow, you know This just seemed like such a huge task or huge Undertaking for what you shared in the book, you know and all of the the things that that you needed to now create and to to lead in this area of Chinese aphasia. 

Mai Ling Chan 24:24 
So My first question is why did you agree to share your journey in our book with us? 

Anthony Kong 24:31 
Well, number one, I want to enhance general public's understanding of aphasia, especially in the Chinese context, because this is not something that we like typically know, in terms of you know, the characteristics of the condition, what is causing this difficulties, why are they common in like the people with stroke, you know, things like that, these are not people that that I know will typically talk about, it's not something that you easily I mean, this this type of information is not easy to get from a, maybe a textbook or from a TV show, in a television, it's just not something that people always talk about. 

Anthony Kong 25:16 
Number two, I want to encourage more young people to get interested in the field of speech pathology, and hopefully in aphasia to be specific. And I also want to let people know about my academic journey, which critically shade my dedication to support Chinese speakers with aphasia, not just in Asia, but also worldwide. 

Mai Ling Chan 25:38 
Excellent. And you did a really great job of sharing all of that. And your professional writing is just so eloquent and easy to understand. So for our listener, I really hope that you have the opportunity to grab a copy of the book and deep dive into Anthony's story and others who are in this area of leadership. 

Mai Ling Chan 25:56 
And we don't always think of ourselves as leaders. And so I just want to touch on that a little bit with you, Anthony. In the book, I know that I read your first draft and I went back and said, well, how did you feel about this? 

Mai Ling Chan 26:08 
You're out there and you're leading the way and you're creating all these new materials and you're bringing people to the profession. But what was the feeling along that journey? 

Anthony Kong 26:17 
It's definitely not easy, because when I was in the States, I see that my academic counterparts who works in English, Aphasia, typically had a lot of colleagues within and outside of the nation to talk about Aphasia in English. 

Anthony Kong 26:39 
But I didn't really have that many chances to share this with someone who are dedicated or who work more specifically in Chinese of Asia. And I think the network also, I mean, the network involving similar scholars in Asia is not as strong as compared to the one we have in the US. 

Anthony Kong 27:04 
So at the beginning, it was not easy. However, as I have been in the field for a longer time, as I knew more friends and new colleagues, I think there are times that we can actually share our journey and actually discuss Chinese of Asia in an easier way. 

Anthony Kong 27:27 
So it has become more easy, definitely for sure. And it's also good to see that more and more people, not just native Chinese speakers, but also speakers of other languages are interested in understanding more about what is Chinese of Asia like and how is it actually different from the Aphasia that we have learned, for example, in English or in some other Western countries. 

Mai Ling Chan 27:54 
Yeah, and you created that community. So, you know, kudos to you. Thank you. And this is what our audience is listening to. You know, they are on their own journeys of creating something where nothing was before. 

Mai Ling Chan 28:05 
So what recommendations do you have for our listener on going into and serving or working with a new and underserved community? 

Anthony Kong 28:14 
I think, like what I have shared in the book, don't be shy about seeking help or support from experienced professionals who have the expertise. That person does not necessarily need to have the same expertise, but for those who have a similar journey in the past, or they have insights to share, just be brave and ask for help or support and guidance. 

Anthony Kong 28:42 
So the easiest way is to connect with a senior colleague or a friend of a senior colleague who can actually provide this valuable insights. They may be able to assist, they may be able to give advice on how to navigate the challenges you're facing so that that would be great. 

Anthony Kong 29:00 
And I think volunteering is a very good way to get yourself into the particular area or the people who have that disorder or that condition so that you will have a better understanding of what their daily challenges are, what their needs are. 

Anthony Kong 29:18 
And also it will give you more professional insights and gain a more clinically relevant perspective of these people's needs. And hopefully in turn, it will offer some new directions on how to examine this new area or how to better serve those with this new condition. 

Mai Ling Chan 29:37 
Excellent, yes. I love the volunteering recommendation. Okay, so we want to stay in touch with you. How can we continue to follow your progress and if we want to connect? 

Anthony Kong 29:46 
Our website, I mean the website of our lab, the Aphasia Research and Therapy Lab at the University of Hong Kong is a very good way to be the starting point because we have a dedicated email that you can just like, you know, shoot us an email and ask questions. 

Anthony Kong 30:04 
And on this website, we feature our new current projects. We have different news and media interview reports there. We have resources for people with Aphasia and their caregivers. And there are also links to other relevant professional organizations. 

Anthony Kong 30:22 
So that website is one of them. And we also have a dedicated Facebook and Instagram on social media, linked to this, this art lab. So I think that's that will be another good way to get connected with us. 

Mai Ling Chan 30:37 
Excellent. And I will put those links in the show notes. 

Anthony Kong 30:41 
Excellent. Thank you. 

Mai Ling Chan 30:42 
Thank you for joining me. You can have a wonderful rest of your evening and I'll get my start to my day. And thank you, our listener, for popping in on what I think is a very new and different area that you may not have known of before this, but I hope that this gets your wheels turning and helps you in a new and pioneering area that you're working on. 

Anthony Kong 31:02 
Thank you for having me, Meling, and I look forward to seeing you in the coming up ASHA convention. 

Mai Ling Chan 31:08 
Yay! I'll see you again. That's wonderful. Thank you so much. 

Anthony Kong 31:12 
Take care. 

Mai Ling Chan 31:13 
We hope you enjoyed this episode and invite you to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and share the show with people you think will find value from it. This helps the show a lot. Or have a great guest referral, reach out to us at xleaders at gmail .com. 

Speaker 4 31:29 
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