Connecting Neurodivergent Jobseekers and Employers with Jhillika Kumar & Conner Reinhardt

James Berges 00:00 
Neurodiverse teams can be at least 30% more productive than solely neurotypical teams per Harvard Business Review. However, those with autism, ADHD, TBI, dyslexia, and the like are underemployed and underutilized in the workforce. 

Mai Ling Chan 00:15 
Yeah. And our guests today are going to fix that James with Mentra. It's a job matching platform and it's for neurodiverse job seekers. And they're looking at their skills and their training employers on how to hire people who are neurodiverse. 

Mai Ling Chan 00:28 
It's really interesting because this group was backed by Sam Altman, who is the creator of open AI and chat GPT. It's powered by Microsoft and the founders are featured in Forbes 30 under 30. It's such an exciting episode. 

Mai Ling Chan 00:40 
You don't want to miss this. 

Jhillika Kumar 00:47 
As we built this team to now 11 people and really tried to build the next LinkedIn for the neurodiverse and to build a neuroinclusive hiring platform, which really supports folks with cognitive variations, autism, ADHD, dyslexia, learning disabilities, and also has a huge intersection with people with physical disabilities, motor challenges, physical challenges, and mental health as well. 

Jhillika Kumar 01:11 
So we are building this platform now to hopefully tap into that. 

Conner Reinardt 01:16 
Not only have we seen so much more focus on mental health in the workplace that has spurred this new world of unmasking for neurodivergence, but we've also seen a very large shift in how companies are approaching diversity, which has really led to a large focus now on the inclusion piece for this population. 

Mai Ling Chan 01:35 
Welcome to the Exceptional Leaders podcast. I'm Nailing Chan, and together with James Burgess, we're giving you top tips and resources for building and scaling your disability -focused offerings straight from the forefront of disability advocacy and leadership. 

James Berges 01:52 
The founders Jhillika and Connor cover a lot in the episode. Here's a taste of what you'll learn. The current problem with neurodiverse hiring and how to solve it, why a neurodiverse workforce is an advantage, practical strategies for employers to find and retain neurodiverse talent with accommodations to retain them from interviewing techniques and even how you post your job postings to make it more accessible. 

James Berges 02:16 
And Jhillika and Connor go into the hard earned business lessons that they learned growing a fast growing startup in the disability space, even especially when you're serving multiple sides of a marketplace from employers to neurodiverse individuals. 

James Berges 02:29 
You know, it's the chicken and the egg problem. How do you grow two audiences at once? Well, they get into that. And they get into how they use AI to help match job seekers to the best employers. 

Mai Ling Chan 02:40 
Yeah. That's a huge area, James. And for our listener, hopefully you'll be joining us in two weeks. James and I are going to be deep diving into AI and ethics. I'm actually doing a presentation and this will have passed already by then, but it's March 21st with speechtherapypd .com on AI and ethics and speech therapy. 

Mai Ling Chan 02:57 
And James and I are going to talk about it in a much broader sense, but still as someone who is creating content and just doing everything that you're doing in this space as a mover and a shaker and a pioneer, you're definitely going to want to know what we know so far about AI. 

Mai Ling Chan 03:13 
So join us in the next week. 

James Berges 03:16 
Yeah, if you're not keeping up with AI, you're going to get left behind. Not to scare you, but join us. And in the meantime, please give this episode a share with someone who's interested in neurodiversity or someone who's maybe looking for a job in his neurodiverse or employers looking for neurodiverse talent because it is an advantage and you'll learn all about that in this episode. 

James Berges 03:38 
So let's get to the episode. I'm pleased to introduce Connor Reinhardt and Jhillika Kumar, the founders of Mentra, an innovative platform dedicated to connecting neurodiverse individuals with meaningful employment opportunities. 

James Berges 03:57 
Both Connor and Jhillika have been recognized for their impactful work, earning spots on the Forbes 30 Under 30 list. And their dedication to fostering inclusivity and diversity in the workplace has not only transformed lives, but also challenged and reshaped the way that companies approach hiring and talent development. 

James Berges 04:14 
So let's dive in. Well, first, thank you both for being here. Thanks for having us. 

Jhillika Kumar 04:18 
It's a pleasure. Thanks for having us. 

James Berges 04:20 
Yeah. So I want to start with, you know, the why behind the how and Jhillika, let's start with you because you have an interesting journey and with the story of your brother Vikram. Can you please share that story and how that shaped your perspective on neuro diversity and the mission of Mentra? 

Jhillika Kumar 04:38 
Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up with my brother Vikram in non speaking or traditionally nonverbal autistic individual, and seven years older than me couldn't speak. And so when I was going out and getting an education and getting internships in a job, he did not have the same access to opportunity that I did. 

Jhillika Kumar 04:58 
And it really made me question, you know, why that is why a society built in such a way that someone who might have a lot of strengths to offer, you know, gets overlooked by systemic processes. And so it wasn't until I was at college at Georgia Tech, doing research on IV technology, because I believed that, you know, I had a hypothesis that my brother might just be, you know, intelligent and while everyone was sort of treating him like a three year old based on, you know, what you see at face value, even though he was 27, it wasn't until that year that he started to, through the research, access a letter board, and then an iPad. 

Jhillika Kumar 05:38 
And letter by letter, he started to express himself and we realized that he was super intelligent. And he started to share, you know, his own life experience as he describes being trapped in a body with no voice and made me realize that, you know, one in every seven humans have cognitive disabilities differences ways of seeing the world and challenges that go so overlooked. 

Jhillika Kumar 06:03 
And, you know, later on in the process, you know, realized my own neurodivergence as an audio each year and, you know, working with the community and really understanding my challenges and my strengths and that it was okay not to be okay and that it's okay to ask for support in a workplace environment. 

Jhillika Kumar 06:20 
And, you know, that was that was a huge kind of both startup journey, as we built this team to now 11 people and, you know, really tried to build the next LinkedIn for the neuro, you know, neurodiverse and to build a neuro inclusive hiring platform, which really supports folks with cognitive variations, autism, ADHD, dyslexia, learning disabilities, and also has a huge intersection with people with physical disabilities, motor challenges, physical challenges, and, you know, mental health as well. 

Jhillika Kumar 06:51 
So, we are building this platform now to hopefully tap into that strength that I wish my brother could one day, you know, have the opportunity to find work. So that's how we started in a nutshell. 

James Berges 07:04 
Yeah, I love it. I love it. The best inspiration for these types of startups are personal stories. And you remind me of, as a speech pathologist, working with people with AAC, augmentative alternative communication. 

James Berges 07:18 
And yeah, it's like there's so much potential that can be tapped into that is unfortunately not being utilized. Well, I will get more into it, but I was thinking like some of the students I work with, it was all of the onus was on them to prepare and almost like mask their autism to prepare for the workforce. 

James Berges 07:37 
But I wish they had something like Mentra back then. So I'm glad it exists now. And so Connor, what was your story with Mentra? How did you link up with Jhillika? And was there a TEDx conference? I understand that was part of the spark there. 

Conner Reinardt 07:54 
Yeah, for sure. So I met Jhillika about five years ago now as the organizer of the TEDx conference where she spoke and she shared the story of her brother. And for me, having worked at Tesla and worked mostly in supply chain and focusing on the climate, I had not been really exposed to neurodiversity as a problem space, but it really struck a chord with me, you know, the story of Vikram and how so much of his intelligence was actually misunderstood and therefore not really employed in the workforce. 

Conner Reinardt 08:25 
And it's such a huge inefficiency in the way that our world exists today. And growing up, I had a lot of issues through schooling with being bullied despite doing very well in sort of the traditional education context. 

Conner Reinardt 08:39 
I struggled socially and it wasn't until later in the process that I realized that myself, autistic, diagnosed as an adult. But what's really interesting with how this began is it started with Jhillika's call to action to have more technologists focused on solving this inefficiency. 

Conner Reinardt 08:59 
And as the mission grew, we realized that we were really striking a chord with both companies and a broader social movement in fast forward five years. Not only have we seen so much more focus on mental health in the workplace that has sort of spurred this new world of unmasking for neurodivergence, but we've also seen a very large shift in how companies are approaching diversity, which we're excited to talk about that has really led to a large focus now on the inclusion piece for this population. 

Jhillika Kumar 09:30 
Yes, and I really want to add a quote that one of our lead investors, Sam Altman shared, he shared diversity of thought is key to tackling humanity's most complex challenges. The most innovative companies of our time have embraced neurodiversity, and neurodivergent thinking. 

Jhillika Kumar 09:47 
And I think that's like, you know, really cool quote, to summarize sort of, that belief, even from an enterprise and employer side, things are changing, companies are realizing, you know, the status quo and the systems in place and HR in general was very biased, promoting a lot of familiarity. 

Jhillika Kumar 10:05 
And now it's looking more so at diversity of thought and expression. And that encompasses, you know, different walks of life, different cultural backgrounds, and also different new disabilities, both visible and invisible, that people live with, and how that affects them in the workplace. 

Jhillika Kumar 10:22 
You know, we're seeing this movement to Connor talked a little bit about it, but that shift to being vulnerable, you know, and opening up and sharing. And you know, how that's allowing us to really take off that mask and be authentic. 

Jhillika Kumar 10:37 
And also for companies unlocks productivity, ROI, like, really gets the most out of the workforce and maximizes on those strengths. 

James Berges 10:46 
Yeah, I love that. Yeah, you know, past interviews on this podcast too, recurring themes of Steve Jobs, you know, Sam Altman, some of the huge entrepreneurs, Elon Musk, now you both like neurodiversity is getting a nice rebrand of not to say that, you know, it's diversity, you need different strengths and weaknesses and areas of support. 

James Berges 11:09 
But there's this undercurrent of recognition for the strengths that are coming with it and the superpowers that come with it. And so I love to see that. 

Conner Reinardt 11:20 
Yeah, I think one thing to add on to that is if you look all the way back to Da Vinci, you know, back in the medieval days, the Renaissance, the focus was so much more on apprenticeship and skills -based learning. 

Conner Reinardt 11:31 
And here we see Leonardo Da Vinci mastering so many different trades. But today, someone with the very same cognitive profile would be given Ritalin and sort of relegated to a singular learning path, oftentimes to, you know, really negative effects. 

Conner Reinardt 11:46 
Yeah. So there's a lot that we can do to unlock that genius. 

James Berges 11:52 
Yeah, it's like I wonder what Einstein would have been like if they had put him on Ritalin and probably wouldn't have the creativity that we saw, I would guess. And so what does Metro solve at a high level? 

James Berges 12:05 
We'll get into more specifics. But you know, what was the thing you saw? Okay, there's this need for hiring. Like, why wasn't the status quo cutting it? 

Conner Reinardt 12:15 
Yeah, I mean, I think it comes down to the very human level, which is you have this huge population, one in seven people worldwide, who are 40% unemployed, and it has nothing to do with capabilities or skill set or the value that we can bring to the workforce. 

Conner Reinardt 12:32 
And it has everything to do with the recruitment process itself. Today, you have so many folks who are going through the interview process and who are being selected that cannot successfully do that job long term. 

Conner Reinardt 12:44 
And on the other side, you have so many amazing, talented folks that could do the job that are being filtered out. And we realize that there's immense value to be had for both sides if we can fix that problem. 

James Berges 12:56 
Love it. And I'm curious because with a two -sided marketplace, there's this guy Andrew Chen in Silicon Valley who talks about the cold start problem. It's more of a business oriented question, but some of our listeners are aspiring to be entrepreneurs themselves, so it could be relevant to them. 

James Berges 13:13 
Was there one side that was harder to grow or to convince, to buy into the vision of a neurodiverse marketplace hiring board between the employers and between neurodiverse job seekers? 

Jhillika Kumar 13:27 
Yes, 100%. It was much easier to bring on the job seekers compared to the employers. We had to get very narrowed with what types of employers we were focused on. I would say a big piece of advice for entrepreneurs is, especially in this space when we're serving one in every seven or one in every five humans, it's such a big market. 

Jhillika Kumar 13:50 
What we learned initially when we're pitching is, hey, look, this is highly unemployed, unemployed talent pool. Now we're saying, look, this is an untapped talent pool that has immense amount of value that can be brought to the workplace. 

Jhillika Kumar 14:04 
It's sort of switching the pitch around to be more strength -based and focused on the value add to society and then actually quantifying that with numbers. Someone gave me great advice that you either want to show your customer how you're making the money or saving the money at the end of the day. 

Jhillika Kumar 14:20 
If we can demonstrate that you're saving money on hiring by not going through intense amounts of screening and you have a process that understands the cognitive profile of the individual, their accommodations or support needs, and it leads to lower attrition, then we're demonstrating that business case. 

Jhillika Kumar 14:39 
Balancing that with the social impact piece has been huge for us. It's a fine line. I think companies are buying into that now the ROI equation, return on investment. I think that's a great piece of advice that anyone innovating in this space I hope can be helpful. 

James Berges 14:58 
Yeah, I think that's super helpful. I mean, as much as we want to make a social impact business, you still have to make the business case in this world and return on investment. And are there a couple high level things that a lot of employers you've seen weren't aware of that you had to do some education of like you mentioned, you know, there's untapped potential. 

James Berges 15:20 
Are there any other specific things that you find helpful convincing employers? 

Conner Reinardt 15:25 
Yeah, I think a lot of employers, at least now, and this has changed a little bit over the past couple of years, they're starting to see the value of neurodiversity. And you have some of these flagship programs, Wells Fargo, EY, Microsoft that have existed for the last several years and grown and really showcase that there's a lot of retention and productivity benefits from this population. 

Conner Reinardt 15:46 
But the question that we still get often is how difficult is this really going to be? There's a lot of potential compliance headaches and challenges where employers have no idea what variants in the population they're going to have to accommodate and what that's really going to mean from a practical point of view. 

Conner Reinardt 16:05 
And I think one of the insights that we often like to share, and we have our wonderful friends in the employee resource groups around the Fortune 500 who help us with this, is that a large number of the employees in every organization today are already neurodivergent. 

Conner Reinardt 16:22 
So when there's concern of, hey, you know, I don't know if we can hire from this population, I don't know if we're going to be able to do this, it's going to be too difficult. Our resonating pitch is actually some of your best employees are neurodivergent already. 

Conner Reinardt 16:35 
You're already doing this and you already have thousands of neurodivergence hiring, applying to your jobs every day in your current process. We're just going to help you make that better so that you can tap into that potential more. 

Conner Reinardt 16:49 
It's not going to expose you to any additional risk that you don't already have. And I think that that's been a big shift. So looking at hiring is not only a tool to hire, but a tool to build the infrastructure, the process, the cultural change necessary for those existing employees to also come forward and be valued. 

James Berges 17:09 
Yeah, I think I think that's a great insight. Like you're already doing this. Let's just make it easier for you. And so let's talk about the how behind that. How, you know, besides being a job board, that's instead of just maybe someone's listening, it's thinking, okay, it's LinkedIn for neurodiverse individuals. 

James Berges 17:26 
But I know it's so much more than that. Can you talk about how do you support both sides? Maybe starting with the mentor profiles and well, it brings to mind a quote to that, you know, you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism, meaning we talk about neurodiversity, they're all individuals, right? 

James Berges 17:45 
But when you talk about technology, you're trying to scale it and make it operationalized and, and efficient. So maybe that's actually I'm embedding two questions in one, but I'm curious how you think about scalability and that and catering to the unique needs of neurodiverse individuals. 

James Berges 18:04 
So yeah, start with which either one. 

Conner Reinardt 18:07 
I'll start this one off, I think, I mean, I think to your point, if you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism, if we look at the population we serve, it's not just autism, it's autism, ADHD, dyslexia, PTSD, anxiety, so many other forms of neurodivergence, and then you have the intersectionality piece, and not everyone has a formal diagnosis. 

Conner Reinardt 18:27 
I myself wasn't diagnosed till later in life, so you have self -diagnosed folks, and there's a very wide range. So how could we possibly build a solution that works for all of us? And I think that really comes down to the principle of universal design. 

Conner Reinardt 18:40 
We're building a better hiring process, period. It just so happens that we're starting with the most complex use case in order to do that. And what does a better hiring process actually look like? Well, it looks like going beyond the resume to understand the human, what are the cognitive strengths, whether that's hyper focus or attention to detail, pattern recognition, what are someone's neuro exceptional talents, the area where we may have a special interest that we've really honed in upon, what are the environmental sensitivities that someone might have, whether that's bright lights, loud sounds, the need for decompression breaks, the way that we communicate through written instructions or receiving information in advance, and then all of the various aspects that might showcase that outside of the work context, through the projects someone may have, their work samples. 

Conner Reinardt 19:29 
So we really focus on all of those pieces. And what we find is that that framework works regardless of the person's background, because we're able to create a framework that is inherently inclusive. And that's what we consider neuro inclusion at the end of the day is catering to that diversity of thought. 

Conner Reinardt 19:48 
Angelica, if you want to share more around how such a framework can work for various contexts. 

Jhillika Kumar 19:53 
Yeah, for sure. So when job seekers sign up, they go through an onboarding process where we've gotten a lot of feedback from our users that they've never seen anything like it before. It goes real deep into how does your brain work? 

Jhillika Kumar 20:06 
What type of environments can you thrive in? What causes sensory overload? What manager support do you need? What do you need to let your teammates know when you join the role? And really helping a job seeker advocate for themselves and sometimes even providing the toolkit, which is like the language around it, especially when it's so personal. 

Jhillika Kumar 20:24 
So that's the main onboarding. And then we build a profile, which is sort of like the next generation of resume, which is a lot more holistic than just work experience and education. And then we match job seekers with roles that we think they'd be best suited for. 

Jhillika Kumar 20:39 
Right now, we have roles in technology primarily. And it's just a starting point for us. So we've gotten deep into data analytics type roles, design, including UX in the creative field, as well as software engineering, which is probably the most demanding software engineering from that employer standpoint. 

Jhillika Kumar 20:58 
And so job improvement can match with roles there. We initially focused on serving everyone in every type of job. And we realized we had to narrow our focus, especially as an ADHDer, focus on absolutely everything. 

Jhillika Kumar 21:11 
We had to pick a few to get really good at. And then over time, we want to expand to other verticals. So that's how it works from a job seeker perspective. And yeah, it's sort of like we provide support at every step. 

Jhillika Kumar 21:24 
So whether it's, you know, resources on how to best interview, we provide prompting and nudging, which we know can be helpful for those of us who struggle with executive functioning challenges. And yeah, really try to build more transparency so candidates understand what they're about to get into with both the interview and the job. 

Jhillika Kumar 21:44 
How neuroinclusive is the company itself? Do they have BRGs? Do they have a mentorship program? What are they doing to support the one, you know, 20% of the organization, likely that's near divergent. 

Jhillika Kumar 21:54 
So making that really transparent upfront and showcasing job descriptions in a neuroinclusive way as well is something we do through the tool. So we really hope to help streamline it and make it as easy as possible to find your green job. 

James Berges 22:08 
I love that. Thank you for that explanation. A couple of things came to mind with all of our potentially neurodiverse minds going off in different tangents. But you mentioned universal design, and I love that because often we see companies talk about inclusion as or accessibility as this tacked on afterthought. 

James Berges 22:27 
They design the product, and then, OK, let's add some accessibility features. But you're saying from universal design perspective, let's make the most accessible thing for all types of people from all types of backgrounds from the get -go. 

James Berges 22:40 
So it really works for everyone. Then there's this business podcaster named Steph Smith. She's actually on the A16Z podcast. She talks about, I don't know if she's neurodiverse or not, but again, this works for everyone. 

James Berges 22:52 
She makes a card of all her preferences for her work styles. This is the best way to communicate with me. This is my best work style. These kind of things make me overwhelmed, but this is the workaround for that. 

James Berges 23:05 
And I think if everyone kind of had that mindset, we would all communicate better. Especially I work for a remote team. You don't know immediately how people are. And so we can all do a better job of being transparent. 

James Berges 23:18 
So I love that. Just wanted to say that. Are you looking to go beyond your degree and expand your impact? Whether you're a clinician or educator, you can leverage your skills outside direct services. 

James Berges 23:30 
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James Berges 23:42 
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James Berges 23:54 
To find out how, join other movers and shakers at slptransitions .com. Now, let's get back to the amazing interview. I wanted to ask you more about the specifics. So you mentioned a few things there, like from hiring to the way you write the job descriptions, to maybe an employer is listening to this right now. 

James Berges 24:17 
What are some tips you could give them to be more accommodating from the way maybe they write job descriptions to the way they interview. And then likewise, maybe if you have any stories of neurodiverse individuals going through that process, what helped them get through the interview process? 

Jhillika Kumar 24:38 
Yeah, for sure. So on the employer side, first of all, we need a champion, we need leadership to have buy in and believe in the strength of this population, and see it as a business advantage. So that's step one is the champions, then we bring on hiring managers, we realize, and recruiters, we realize that recruiters are sort of like the entry gatekeepers almost to the organization. 

Jhillika Kumar 25:00 
And the hiring managers are what keep people there. And we need to make sure like there's awareness and acceptance of how neurodiversity manifests itself in an interview or in the workplace that we need to just educate companies on, and also like intersectionality and how different life experiences and disability and backgrounds can impact one's performance or, you know, requirement for time off or decompression time or so many different things, even like dietary preferences, right? 

Jhillika Kumar 25:29 
It's like so vast. And so we we help the, you know, hiring manager or recruiter understand that. And then really building in a circle of support element to how do we, you know, support employees and how do we support, you know, through ERG groups and job coaching and mentorship programs. 

Jhillika Kumar 25:48 
So that's on the employer side. And Connor, I can pass on to you to share more on the candidates side too. 

Conner Reinardt 25:53 
Yeah, I think, yeah, just to add on to that really quick, one of the common stories we hear from, from companies when we talk a lot with HR leaders is something along the lines of, you know, Hey, we have a lot of these performance issues that, you know, we continue to deal with. 

Conner Reinardt 26:06 
And one thing that we realized often from talking to leaders is that many performance issues when the appropriate digging is done are the result of someone's neurodivergence being misunderstood in the work context. 

Conner Reinardt 26:20 
And for example, as soon as the manager is able to find out, Hey, this person actually has ADHD and needs to process things differently, or Hey, this person has a sort of a sensory processing difference and is able to understand that nine times out of 10, those issues actually can be overcome. 

Conner Reinardt 26:36 
But the challenges and the sad part is that it took this, this challenging event for that to be unearthed. And what if we could live in a world where we could unearth that right at the beginning, that's where a mentor really, really helps. 

Conner Reinardt 26:48 
So the job seekers we've seen the most success with are the ones that have been able to come into the mentor ecosystem. We've had some folks come in after many years of unemployment, some on the brink of homelessness and being able to share their neurodivergence, both as a strength and, uh, you know, with the appropriate sort of challenges and adjustments they need to be successful to have the employers recognize that not only from day one, but even pre -interview and be able to lean into assessing them for the skills that are actually needed to succeed in that role. 

Conner Reinardt 27:20 
And what we've found is that by having that shared understanding up front, we've been able to get to a 94 .5% retention rate at the one year mark. And it's been a very positive experience. So our goal is to kind of create that translation layer where it's not a very difficult and awkward conversation for recruiters to ask about someone's, you know, unique ways of working. 

Conner Reinardt 27:42 
And it's also not the burden isn't on the candidate who may be having a very difficult time with social interaction in general, let alone in a stressful interview process, that is not the time where you want to be doing this sort of double black diamond task of making your working with me document and explaining it to a recruiter. 

Conner Reinardt 27:59 
So we really try to take that conversation and sort of preempt it in some sense. 

James Berges 28:05 
Mmm, that's so important. Yeah, like it's prevention is the best treatment and in that sense to use medical jargon But this is so interesting. So I'm just so you know So you have the interview part and I was gonna ask about retention because I could see that being an objection From either side of like, okay So you offer these tools to get someone hired and that's great, but we want to retain the employee. 

James Berges 28:30 
So other specific Accommodations that I know I guess it's best based on the profile that you find in the beginning But are there general things that employers should be aware of aware of for accommodations to retain employees of different backgrounds? 

James Berges 28:47 
I'm just curious if you see some broad themes there 

Jhillika Kumar 28:51 
Absolutely, yes. So we actually have data from over at the time when the study was done around 27 ,000 nerd virgins and we identified like the top commonly most requested accommodations. So they were job coaching and mentoring, noise canceling headphones, extra time during interviews, flexible scheduling, uninterrupted work time, allowance of fidgeting devices, closed captioning and recorded materials, written concise instructions, an interviewer experience with neurodiversity, and email slash calendar organization. 

Jhillika Kumar 29:26 
And actually, the most interesting thing about all of these is that most of them don't cost any additional, like don't have an additional cost to the employer. So it's huge to be able to just change a manager employee's behavior to make it so much more accessible for someone to bring their best self to work every day. 

Jhillika Kumar 29:45 
So yeah, those are some commonly requested ones. And I know I mentioned one of them was extra time in interviews. We also see extra processing time being a large one, being able to think through and digest things and come back. 

Jhillika Kumar 29:58 
And even in interviews, sometimes when asked questions, folks might need a few seconds to formulate their response. And so recruiters tell us, well, knowing that the person needs extra processing time beforehand, you know, because of like their own neurodivergence, oftentimes can be really helpful because it mitigates that sort of awkward, you know, silence, like it's something am I supposed to say something is, you know, and so making that aware up front that recruiters like, okay, I know that this person needs more time, I'm not going to disqualify them or create unintentional bias by the length of time they're taking to respond, because I know that when they do respond, they would have thought through a very long for the good answer. 

Jhillika Kumar 30:35 
That's just a very specific example we see come up often. And hopefully, you know, we can continue to put out research like this and educate employers on these factors to 

Conner Reinardt 30:44 
Just to add on to that, I just want to say, you know, Harvard Business Review did a study showing neurodiverse teams are 30% more productive and a large part of why that is the case is because the process of learning to work with each other and with our different minds actually creates a better process for everyone to collaborate. 

Conner Reinardt 31:05 
So the managers that are able to understand their employees and what their unique needs are and how to best get their skills to be leveraged in the context of a team. Those are the best managers, period. 

Conner Reinardt 31:17 
We have companies often ask us, are we going to be biased by knowing if someone's neurodivergent or not? And of course, there's a different conversation around specific medical diagnosis. So throw that aside for a second. 

Conner Reinardt 31:30 
But if it's just understanding how to work with me, you know, what are my unique strengths? What do I need to be successful? How do I communicate best? There's more bias in not knowing that information, because if you don't know that information, then we'll be making judgments off of factors that are irrelevant to actually doing the job successfully. 

Conner Reinardt 31:50 
And that's oftentimes what we see. So just food for thought on that piece. 

James Berges 31:56 
Yeah, I love that. It's like the social dynamics piece too, especially in Zoom meetings or just work meetings in general. Sometimes the loudest voice is the one that gets heard and why we need to make accommodations just for even more introverted people who are probably thinking about things very deeply but they might not get their voice heard if they're not the one putting it out there. 

James Berges 32:19 
I also wish there was an accommodation just to not have corporate jargon in meetings sometimes. It's kind of joking but kind of serious because it's like I came from a school environment to corporate America and it's like let's circle back and put a pin in this and track our cape. 

James Berges 32:39 
It's a cultural thing too in corporate America that you have to speak that language and it sort of has to be like code switching. I think even for non -neurodivergent people, it's a shared context that we all have to accommodate to but it can go both ways like you said. 

Jhillika Kumar 32:57 
Yes, you mentioned that and I was just thinking or also when other accommodations like not having decisions made on the spot, especially big decisions because sometimes the latter folks in the room can steer things forward and then folks need to process and think like that's a great accommodation too. 

Jhillika Kumar 33:11 
And yeah, I think, you know, silent leadership is oftentimes overlapping with servant leadership, like it's a really good trait to have leaders that listen and digest and learn from their employees and come back to things and I think their divergence can sometimes excel at that and, you know, social skills might not be natural for many, but I do think that that's like a really important tenet as a lot of folks listening to this might want to go on to, you know, those leadership positions. 

Jhillika Kumar 33:36 
I think corporate America perpetuates a stereotype of kind of the loudest, most assertive people in the room are sometimes, you know, the ones that'll progress in their endeavors and careers and really the case is like everyone has a different way of communication and different strengths and creating an environment to really showcase that is so important. 

Jhillika Kumar 33:58 
So, you know, you're just building an inclusive future where everyone can showcase that. 

James Berges 34:04 
Love it. And for people who do want to build a more inclusive future, we have people listening who are entrepreneurial or pre -entrepreneurial thinking about how can I make a bigger impact? What advice would you give to someone who wants to get into the neurodiversity space or just build a business for people with disabilities in general? 

James Berges 34:23 
What special maybe considerations or things have you learned maybe the hard way? 

Conner Reinardt 34:28 
That's a really good question. I think one of the things that's really important to think about is what is the value that we're driving for folks on the hard side of the market? So going back to what you said earlier, we have a population that we know is valuable in the workforce. 

Conner Reinardt 34:43 
We represent that side of the market. The other side of the market, we have some more convincing to do. And I think one thing that is challenging for us, and maybe this is going to directly answer your question, is that the HR leaders convincing them around the theoretical business case, that's one thing. 

Conner Reinardt 35:02 
And that's something we've spent a lot of time doing and they see that value. But actually brass tacks, the recruiters, the managers, the day -to -day folks that are going to be using the product in the corporate context, they often have a very different set of incentives than the leadership. 

Conner Reinardt 35:18 
So if you get grassroots buy -in, that doesn't mean you have the leadership business case. And if you have the leadership business case, that doesn't mean you have grassroots buy -in. So I think one thing that we've struggled with and learned the hard way and are learning the hard way is that understanding the incentives of the day -to -day user on the employer side, the recruiter that just wants to close jobs that may or may not care so deeply about the mission or the business case, quite frankly, for neurodiversity and the population we serve, they just want to close roles and they want to find talent the hiring manager will accept as efficiently as possible. 

Conner Reinardt 35:51 
That's very different than the rest. So those nuances and the personas that are involved and the real drivers of those behaviors, the sooner you can get to understanding those very nuanced stakeholders and it may be somewhat complicated, depending on your use case, the quicker you can solve for them in avoiding lumping in different stakeholders into the same category will allow you to get more fidelity on that. 

Jhillika Kumar 36:15 
Connor always has the tactical advice, absolutely. Yeah, I would say one more like a quote that I love just to conclude it, you know, it's by Jesse Musk who said passion is not what gives you bliss or makes you happy 24 seven, but what you're willing to suffer for and what you genuinely believe to be worth the sacrifice. 

Jhillika Kumar 36:35 
Keep your body sharp, keep your mind sharp. And I think, you know, so many of us have our challenges and our struggles and I think that actually makes us really powerful leaders and innovators because we're designing for, you know, the diversity of the human population and biodiversity is essential to life and it is essential to evolution. 

Jhillika Kumar 36:53 
So that would be my quote of the day, I guess. 

James Berges 36:57 
Boom, I love it. Put that on a billboard and you just made me think neurodiversity could be an evolutionary thing to help humans evolve to whatever our next stage of thinking is. So maybe don't just stick with one way of thinking. 

Conner Reinardt 37:15 
We have every step of the way to look at all of the major innovations of the last few centuries. 

Jhillika Kumar 37:21 
Absolutely. Such a great point. And with evolution and humanity, you know, we have AI coming in and all this like next generation of technology that's hitting us. And I think one thing that's so important to remember is we want to make that technology accessible to all. 

Jhillika Kumar 37:36 
Like we don't want to create an imbalance in the world where only the people with access to resources have access to those tools. We wanted to augment everyone and bring everyone to the same playing field. 

Jhillika Kumar 37:46 
I think there's so much opportunity for innovation there to bring this, you know, kind of now scene is scary, but really it has incredible opportunity to like boost our productivity to everyone. Like we have to, you know, and I think that's what will allow us to get to this next stage of evolution. 

Jhillika Kumar 38:03 
We can't leave anyone behind. We just can't. 

James Berges 38:08 
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited for AI. I know there's bad sides to it that could happen, but even just on the accessibility front, like making little things for students I've worked with from text to speech and voice to text and all the interactions of ways you can, you know, retain and communicate with information much more rapidly. 

James Berges 38:29 
I think you said it perfectly. I'm going to mic drop it there, but where can people find you to learn more about more about Metra and what you're working on? 

Jhillika Kumar 38:37 
Yes. So our website is www .mentor .com. 

Conner Reinardt 38:42 
That's M -E -N -T -R -A dot com. 

Jhillika Kumar 38:45 
Exactly. And we are active on LinkedIn, my mentor, I think. But if you search us up, and then we also have my LinkedIn, where I'm always posting about thought leadership, so I'm Jillika Kumar. Connor's going to be doing the same for Autism Acceptance Month. 

Jhillika Kumar 38:59 
Let's go, Connor. And we have a, you know, Instagram community, which is where, you know, Facebook community, really just a mentor, and we can share the links with you as well, James. But yeah, stay connected with us. 

Jhillika Kumar 39:14 
And if you're an Adversion job speaker, please do sign up. We are open to any and all folks looking for employment. Yeah, hope to bring on more jobs. 

Conner Reinardt 39:21 
Or if you're a neurodivergent professional thinking about maybe what's out there, you can also sign up and change your status at any time. 

James Berges 39:28 
Amazing. What an amazing resource. I wish I knew about this when I was doing speech therapy, but now it's out there. So, thank you. Thank you, Connor. Thank you, Jhillika, for spending this time with us and cheers to a more neuro -inclusive future. 

James Berges 39:42 
I'll be following along your journey for sure. 

Conner Reinardt 39:44 
Thank you so much, James, for hosting and for the conversation. 

James Berges 39:47 
Yeah, thank you. 

Jhillika Kumar 39:48 
Indeed. Thank you so much for bringing this information to light to come any thank you 

James Berges 39:53 
Absolutely, thank you. 

Mai Ling Chan 39:56 
We hope you enjoyed this episode and invite you to leave us a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify and share the show with people you think will find value from it. This helps the show a lot. Or have a great guest referral, reach out to us at xleaders at gmail .com. 

James Berges 40:11 
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