Creative Marketing & Careers for the Neurodivergent with Merlee Jayme

Merlee Jayme  0:01  
I always teach this. Make your creative life difficult. The biggest sign that you have a winner in your hands is when you have difficulty in grading it.

James Berges  0:18  
You're listening to the Xceptional leaders podcast each week, we give you a front-row seat to our conversations with new and successful exceptional entrepreneurs and thought leaders making an impact. They share their intimate experiences, so you can start grow and expand your impact. I'm James Burgess of SLP transitions.com

Mai Ling  0:38  
And I'm Mai Ling. You can find me at mailingchan dot com and today we're going to be listening to James Burgesses interview with murli Jaime, very, very interesting. I love her background and her just breath of work. James, it was fascinating.

James Berges  0:52  
Yes, I want to ask the question, which she helps answer. Where do not neurodivergent adults go? Who are creatives, where do they go when they graduate? And this is a conversation that we go into depth mailing about, you know, traditional schooling systems already aren't that great for neurodivergent individuals, but especially in these creative fields, where you're expressing yourself film editing, design writing, she applies this mentorship model, and we talk about her newest venture, the misfits camp. And she intentionally names it misfits, which she got some flack for, but she explains why she's sticking to her guns there. So we'll dive into that. And we talked about how this is a theme that's come up before about how neurodivergent individuals have superpowers in different ways. And so she doesn't say disability. She says diverse ability, which I love. Different, you know, we all have, we all have strengths and areas of growth. You alluded to that she has done so much. Yeah, you know, pardon my French, but murli is a certified badass. She started off from being a nun, we talk about how that gave her different powers that applied to her illustrious career in the advertising industry. She's won multiple awards, you know, doing copywriting for things, big organizations like McDonald's all the way to social impact causes for climate change. And just just a powerful woman always asking how can we go bigger? How can we make more of an impact? So anyone who's an aspiring entrepreneur, or asking how can I make a bigger impact is really going to love this episode?

Mai Ling  02:32
Yeah, I really love how the the time, I think it was three years that she spent in that setting of being a non quote unquote. And for our listener, you will hear a very this very creative story. But um, she developed a very different lens of looking at the world. And then she takes that forward, you know, into all of her projects, just fascinating teams. Yeah. And it's sort of this idea of connecting the dots backwards, like you don't know how your experience is going to connect to the next thing you do. And that's the theme that comes up like, well, you know, I'm a speech therapist, and I'm going into marketing in my own journey mailing. And you think, well, this skill does a wonderful job, James, you're so humble, I am definitely cutting you off here. You are so humble, but you are a unicorn in that you are able to look at it through the clinical lens, and then also having the the ability to bring a marketing, professional marketing, you know, sense to it.

James Berges  03:23  
Well, thank you. That's something I've been thinking about a lot actually met with someone this weekend, who's also a speech therapist who has a big meme account. He's anonymous, but I know who he is now, I know his real name. But he's building apps on the side and using his clinical knowledge. And we were talking about how, like the world is changing so fast with AI and technology. And the best way to stay ahead is really just to follow your curiosity and ask questions. No one else is asking and seeing like, you know, whether you come from being a nun, or a speech therapist or marketing, there's a million different ways you can make an impact by combining skills that don't seem to really go together, this combinatorial creativity, just like the artistic or neurodivergent people merely works with, they have different ways of looking at the world. And like why not nurture that through creative expression. So I'm just happy to see that the world is becoming a little more accepting of different types of minds. And I love that she she trains the employer as well as the student. So you know, it takes two to tango, you have to give awareness to the employer of how neurodiverse individuals might think differently, so that they can have that understanding and give the accommodations needed, but also giving the skills to the neurodiverse individual to help them adapt and thrive in the way that they want to so...

Mai Ling  04:48
Absolutely, this actually makes me think we're working on the new book, becoming an exceptional API leader. And one of our co-authors is going to be using a mix of some art and Being able to express themselves through language. And it's very, very interesting because we're trying to work as a team and editorial team to figure this out because the art is already there. And we want to include that in the in the story, which is typically words, right? But this person uses art to communicate. And it is fascinating all the different types of genres and styles that this person uses to communicate. So I'm so excited to share.

James Berges  05:26
Yeah, that's, I love that. And it reminds me of a video I saw recently of non speaking autistic person who's wearing a shirt that said, just because I can't speak, doesn't mean I don't have something to say, or I have nothing to say. And you know, that we're going to unlock this whole world of poetry and expressive arts that we never knew about. I think these things are coming more and more delight. It's just like, a whole new way of communicating. So very exciting to see more people being highlighted in that space. Speaking of highlighting, I know, you have something coming up mailing, don't you?

Mai Ling  06:04
Yes, we do. Thank you for asking James. It's the exceptional alliances epic accessibility event, and we're saying is that if you like boring conferences, then this is not for you. Because it's going to be very fast paced, it's going to be interactive. I know right at the marketing on this is fantastic. But it's really true. That's what I love. It's not a spin, instead of the sit and get and you know, bullet points and one person speaking for an hour, which is valuable, we're not saying it's not, but instead of that type of setting, we're doing a fast paced keynote that comes in and speaks for 10 minutes and kind of sets the tone and the culture and the what's going on right now. And that sets you up for the 30 Minute roundtable discussion. And we have people from all different areas expertise, lived experience, and they're going to be sharing their perspective, their stories, to really help people to get caught up on these amazing topics and important conversations of what's going on with accessibility. And that makes me take a step back, James, because people are like, Okay, what is accessibility? Like people can get into buildings, right? But accessibility now has become How do I use the apps on my phone? How do I engage with a website? You know, how do I be able to get my work done at work? I mean, just so many things, and I'm just so excited. So for our listener, please sign up. It's exceptional alliances.com. It's free. And we really, really need to show that virtual conferences or virtual events are valuable, because there's been such a push to go back to in person. Have you noticed that James?

James Berges  07:37  
Yeah. It's sort of a rebound effect, right? Everyone feeling like, Okay, we've overwhelmed in this one direction, but let's go back, but it's actually more accessible by being virtual, right? 

Mai Ling  07:46
Exactly, or hybrid. And so what we're trying to do is show conference planners and sponsors that there's a need for the virtual component. And so if we can show some really hide registration and attendance numbers, then we can have more data to add that there should be at least a hybrid component, because I have interviewed at least, like 50 different individuals to participate in the event in different ways. And each of them have been saying that they feel that there are events that they haven't been able to attend either as an attendee, or participate in as a speaker, because there was only the in person option. And so what's happening is voices aren't being heard. And that's, you know, that's essential for growth, and especially for the work that we're doing in this disability acceptance area. So disability awareness, awareness is not enough. We are now looking to move towards acceptance. And the only way we can do that is to be hearing from people. Right. So please sign up, share the link. Let's get more people registering. And let's really support our community. Love it. Yeah, please. I'm looking forward to that. Do we talk about San Diego as you're coming to San Diego? Oh, yes, yeah. So this just came up. For one of the few times I'm getting the opportunity to work together with my husband, Cameron Spencer, and he has a hospice here that he is working with. And palliative care company. It's faith hospice. And they have an office in San Diego, which is beautiful. And it's called radiant hospice. And I'm going to be coming together to work with him and his team just for six weeks to see if I can open some doors and make some new relationships and help more people as they journey through their end of life. And it is incredible, James, because hospice is definitely not my area of expertise. But I for years have been connected to him and his team and they truly are angels, you know, in what they do. And we need people who are professional and they're not emotionally affected the whole time, because that's what I would be right. You know, it's because we're not used to that setting. But they are so amazing, you know, with the resources and the family support and just helping on a journey that we are all going to take some day, you know, with our family and friends and ourselves. So I'm so excited. I'm going to be in San Diego. So if anyone wants to meet up, you know, ping me on LinkedIn. And if you know of someone that I should be talking to please let me know, I would love to meet with them and find out more ways that we can help more people. Wonderful.

James Berges  10:08  
Yeah, it reminds me a little bit more of it, maybe, but every one of us will eventually face hospice and have a disability in some sense. And it's like, we need those people to usher us in to a better way. You know, we think a better living, but what about better dying? It's a taboo topic, but really, I think more people need to be talking about it. So I love that your husband does that. And I hope I can see you in San Diego as I'm in LA. For the first time, yes, and we're gonna take pictures and we're gonna share it. It's gonna be amazing. It'll be our first time meeting ever after being on this podcast together for over a year haven't met in person. So another joy of the virtual world that we live in.

Mai Ling  10:46
I can't wait.

James Berges  10:47  
Great. Well, let's hear the interview with Merlee Jayme.

James Berges  10:55  
Merlee Jayme is a chairman, advertising legend, activist and mother for she's one of the only eight women and the 100 best chief creative officers in the world. And the only woman in the top 20 creative directors in Asia, as reported by campaign brief Asia. And too many other words to mention here, but safe to say merely is smashing glass ceilings while raising a family of four. So we're going to dive into our latest projects, including the misfits camp, which is a program that bridges creatives with disabilities to career possibilities, which I love. So merrily, welcome to the exceptional leaders podcast. Thanks for being here.

Merlee Jayme  11:33
Hello, Thank you, James, for the invite to be here in your podcast.

James Berges  11:36
Of course. Yeah. So I mean, in that intro, right, there's a lot there. I know, this is always hard to connect the dots between all your different passions, but I just wanted to dive in, you know what, from advertising to social justice to disaster preparedness, you seem to be wanting to solve huge issues that are not immediately connected in my mind, could you share a little bit about your journey and help us connect the dots?

Merlee Jayme  12:03
I don't know if it's gonna connect the dots. But I do have a lot about being a creative and being restless, all throughout being creative. When I was a kid, you know, I'm the one that you would see in a corner of a room just drawing and drawing and drawing things. And I would volunteer in school to put my drawings in the billboards, or what do you call it bulletin boards, you know, to help out, be silent in the classroom or whatever, raise the board's I will do creative stuff like that. I'm also like a very restless person, I can still sit still, I really want to do a lot. I hate wasting time. You know, it's a time for me, it's like, I'm always running up the fifth. So that's been my guiding principles, creativity and resistance all throughout. So when I say that, James, I never want to be bored. If there are questions in my mind that needs answering I, I asked, and if I don't get it, I look for it, I search for myself, which led me to a lot of things in my life. So that's where we are. So if you need to do something, I need to do something good. I need to contribute. In a brainstorm, you wouldn't find me the silent one. You know, in a team play, I would need to score, you know, I'm that kind of person. So probably that's what drives me.

James Berges  13:26
Driven restlessness can lead to a lot of interesting avenues. I love it. But sort of on the in this might not be the opposite. But in my mind, it's not. It doesn't strike me as the driven action taking career path. I've seen somewhere that you'd spend time studying as a nun. And that had a significant impact on your career. I read. I'm curious how that affected your career path. With this restless energy. Did you feel in conflict with that path? Or did that give you a super... maybe it gave you a superpower that we're not aware of?

Merlee Jayme  14:02
That's true. I mean, you know, when I was 13, I was asking the nuns in the school, I was in a Catholic school and I was asking everyone questions about life. I was kind of deep during that time, I was asking things, why the government is doing this and very difficult question to answer, and no one was answering it. So I go like, you know, instead growing up to be a Catholic girl. My mom was very religious. I thought maybe maybe going into inside a convent would answer my questions. And she said that weird thing going on in my mind. So I wrote a letter and I ran away from home. It wasn't studying in a convent, James. I ran away from home to enter a convent hoping that I would become a nun. But I was too young. So they didn't give me any vows. I was what you call the novitiate. Okay. They accepted me, but they were asking my parents if they're allowing, of course they didn't. But I stood my ground and they said, This is a contemplative Benedictine convent, once you enter, you don't go out, or you don't go in at all. So I said, I want to go and stay, so nobody could pull me out of that convent. The thing is, I stopped studying. So that wasn't the school. It was ora et labora which means work and pray. Now for a city girl, a 13, who was just going to school and playing with friends and frivolous, you know, frivolous life. I did the most interesting things I've never done before. I I groomed horses and clean stables I you know, brought goats up in the heel and pasture you know, for pasture I, I harvested sugarcane. I went up trees and harvested fruit. I mean, never in my life would have done things like that. And in between, you have to go and the sprayer it's every other hour. And I learned how to tell time Oh, my God is almost known by just standing and watching the sun on my shadow. Little things that I you know, it actually made me more creative. To be honest. There were no mirrors in the convent to avoid vanity. I would look at myself on a pond and see my reflection. Oh, I've grown up. You see, I mean, things like that was something like no one is probably experienced in their lives. And I treasure that however, at one point because I was a novitiate, I can just say, okay, time's up. I think I'm learned everything. I want to go home. And no one could stop me. And that was three years after. To be fair. I've spent every single I've done all the jobs or jobs, small jobs and everything else. But I felt like okay, I know, I know things. I've got my answers. And one day and knock them out. I thought my dad was gonna have a heart attack when he saw me. I'm just back. But the thing is, I'm out of school. I'm too old for going back to high school second year, I missed my high school life. And thank God, there was an opportunity for the government to give a test to place me and I passed it. But you see these little things do. I knew plants because of the convent, I could tell what plan it is. I pass science with flying colors. I knew animals like the way nobody knew. I told my friends in advertising ones because no one would pick me as a survivor teammate because they go look at my, you know, I'm high maintenance, oh my god. On the contrary, I know if it's a poisonous plant or not. I mean, I am a totally drained person because of that experience. But I can't be the secret James because I was a bit embarrassed later on that it might be uncool. In an industry of creativity, being a non was not really something that you would want to be proud of. It's very right choose and correct, which in a world of creativity, you'd think you'd be crazy, you'd be daring and bold. So I kept it. And but the however, when I founded my own agency and met problems beyond I think my ability, when your bread and butter client suddenly fires you, for example, when there was sexual harassment that you experience, things like that, suddenly opens your mind to the learnings of the past. And I survived every single thing, because of those years. And I That's why I wrote that in a book, why it pushed me and became better in business, why I survived creativity and train people the way I do now, because of those three years there.

James Berges  18:48
I love it. And I'm just blown away by I have so many thoughts sparking off in my mind. But a couple that I want to highlight here. And maybe you can resonate with this. You talked about being present, and just the art of listening, I think in that silence and stillness, especially in a world that's moving so fast. Maybe that's a competitive advantage. Even if you didn't think of it back then you didn't think I'm going to gain a scale of presence and listening. But you came out of it. I think with you know, it's like you go on the cliche of going up on the mountain and having some self awareness, you come back down from the mountain, and then you bring that into anything you do. So that's one thing. And not looking at vanity metrics, which in the world of advertising is all about looking at the scoreboard looking at how many likes and shares you get on social media. And I think you need to weather every storm and not get lost in that. And that probably helped with that. And so many things like thinking from first principles, not just naming nature, but actually appreciating the structure. Richard Feynman talks about that, like, don't just name the bird. Don't just say rememorize its name. That's not science. Think about why it moves the way it does. Think about why it sounds the wayit does. And so, you know, you think of none and you think of this constricted, traditional practice. But within those constraints breed creativity, because you're combining is combinatorial creativity. So anyways, that's a long rant and a lot of things, we could go off that but...

Merlee Jayme  20:20
I want to just say something to because the rule of silence, the rule of silence was so important. And I got into a business of communications, right? The rule of silence helped me so much that because you cannot speak, you're observing the power to observe obsessively, has heightened. You see little things little, you know, facial expressions, or little movements on the shoulder, oh, he's worried, oh, he's sweaty, he's afraid, little things. It's almost like magnified, when you're not speaking, when you're you three years of no speaking, just saying that prayers, you know, obviously, but it everything is magnified by just simply reading people that bring it to our business. I read clients like how I read employees, like, whenever I feel someone is not happy, I could tell. You don't need to go to my room and resign after what, two, three weeks, I could tell if something's wrong. Even my kids, I could tell if they're hiding something. It's the power of observing is so important in creativity. That's where you get it... that's where you get your insights.

James Berges  21:35
Yeah, that makes it in the past, especially now in the age of AI and content, or things that are sort of just re mixing each other. I think that's going to be an a more important skill, one to just be more human, but also just to be in a creative industry and be innovative. So to shift gears a little bit, so you're talking about going into copywriting and, and account management. When did that happen in your career? And sort of a two part question, but Did you always know that you wanted to address social causes in advertising? Or did you just kind of go in thinking I like creative work, let me get into advertising?

Merlee Jayme  23:13
Well, in the beginning, because I accidentally stumbled into advertising because there was no more, no more available OJT jobs when I was 30 year college. So I got into college, and just passed that test. And I got into college. So there were no OJT jobs available. I wanted to be a newscaster really, because I want to be in front of disasters. And people, you know, I was already like that. But there was no opening. So I got into, it was still J wt. And I couldn't even figure out what this J. Walter Thompson was. And the interview was, Are you going for account management? I did not understand what that was. And I said, account accounting. I'm bad in math, just look at the creative embedding model. And it goes, Hey, would you want to be in the media department? And I said, media? Is it something to do with show business? Or, you know, something like that? I'm kind of shy? No, I'm gonna pass it out. Is there any other department and they said, Are you into creatives? When I heard that, and I, you know, when I was a kid, I said, I was already drawing and maybe that's going to be easier for me. And that's the start. When they brought me to the creative department. It felt like home. I was like, doing things like play. I was like imagining stories and writing. They were already making me present to a client even it was just an OJT. I enjoyed acting, I enjoyed, you know, bringing it all to life. So I got into advertising. Eventually, after college, I wasn't even a graduate, I was already applying to agencies, taking copy tests, and whatever. I enjoyed every single bit when I got in, especially to Saatchi's from the youngest grad, up to the head of the creative department. After 13 years, I was like, enjoying up until one day, my mom said, you know, your parents don't understand what advertising means. You know, whatever way you say. I'm a creative director, mom. Also you direct films. No, no, that's not what the creative director would be. So my mom one day told me, Merlino I know I understand what your job is. You somehow convinced people to buy what they don't need. It made me hard. It made me hard. All these things. I was enjoying writing copy for doing stories, whatever, is just pushing, forcing convincing people to buy. Okay, okay. Brian, I mean products, you know, there was absolutely no purpose in that statement. Yeah. And I sort of sat down and said, What happened to me what happened to me three years. I mean, I was like, you know, I knew my answers. I was so gung ho to fix the world or whatever I was like, so ideal is what happened to me I was doing like, it's fine. I was doing an ad for diapers doing, you know, shampoo and whatever.

James Berges  25:10
Not cigarettes. So not too, not too bad.

Merlee Jayme  25:14
I was doing liquor I was doing everything nam it, right? Join. And that's when I said, maybe there's a way of using all this energy and all these ideas and whatever to put a little bit of purpose in it, not how we imagined purpose to be like CSR work or whatever. Something like putting a little bit of value into what you write. So that's when I started writing about a simple McDonald's ad. But I would put a little bit about sibling rivalry. I would insert a little bit of real stories, what you really encounter in the family that no one wants to solve, no one wants to touch. What if I put a little bit of those, so you end up selling but you also put a little bit of value into it. Or what about favoritism among children, parents with favorites, you know, things that we don't want to discuss. LGBTQ issues, for example, not being accepted. Things, difficulties at work, then your mental problems come up, you know, discrimination, all of that i Little, little by little, put it in my copy.

James Berges  26:31
Sneak Attack. Yeah.

Merlee Jayme  26:35  
Because you, you are not creating all of those initiatives, CSR, which clients would say, Oh, you just want to win an award and whatever. Suddenly, you want to change people's minds and hearts. As you said, you want to change little by little. That's when I got into several of my projects that actually became more fulfillment to me. Because now I feel that I married both worlds.

James Berges  27:01
That really resonates. Personally, as a speech therapist, copywriter, content person myself, I recall, the same feeling of I love creative expression. But the jobs that pay for writing, typically, unless you break into, you know, maybe, idealistically I almost wanted to go into film thinking I can make films that influence hearts and minds to do good things. But I got a career guide, there's an organization called 80,000 hours, and said that you have 80,000 hours in your career, on average, what impact do you want to make? And they actually advise me, I said, Should I do speech therapy or psychology, be a psychologist, as kind of what I'm leaving or go into marketing. And they said, actually, you can make a bigger impact with marketing, because you can affect more people with that persuasion that you're talking about. But I just didn't, I was afraid of the same thing as you as like, am I going to sell cigarettes or, you know, creativity to what end? So I just love that you found a way to sneak it in there and not just do it in the nonprofit world, which they obviously need copywriters and marketers to, it's persuasion at the end of the day, you can persuade people for good. Are you looking to go beyond your degree and expand your impact? Whether you're a clinician or educator, you can leverage your skills outside direct services, maybe you want to break into the exciting world of health and edtech. Or maybe you're interested in carving your own path and digital entrepreneurship. Either way, you'll find a supportive community and resources at SLP transitions.com. Inside you'll find my personal Tips for Mastering your mindset in the face of transition. Trust me, I've been there, and inspiring stories of people who've made the leap. You'd be surprised how much your experience translates to other fields to find out how join other movers and shakers at SLP transitions.com.

Now let's get back to the amazing interview. So then you were sneaking those in? And then where did you lead from there? Like did you go straight to climate disaster preparedness? How did it evolve?

Merlee Jayme  29:10
Of course, these things were thrown to us like Greenpeace had a problem with ASAEN coming to the country and no one was bothering to look at climate change. And we were the number three ocean polluters in the world on big, big problems like that. Of course, you don't have an excuse not to be creative with those things. You know, it's almost like, oh my god, what can we do? The biggest thing we can right so we did the whale, made of plastic from the from that particular beach, right? And hid it in a warehouse. I always teach this. Make your creative life difficult. The biggest sign that you have a winner in your hands is when you have difficulty in creating it. If it was a very easy idea to create, not gonna be there but if it's difficult, the level of difficulty To make it happen is there, you've got a winner in your hand. So they always have that kind of guidance. So I always look for the difficulty. If your idea is a big whale, okay, what is the difficulty? It's going to be made of plastic trash. Okay, where are we going to get this trash? From the same beach? How long will we get those trash from the same beach is the most polluted beach? Where is the most? It's farmers. How far I mean, so I always like go the far this most difficult way. Okay, so that would be the gauge of how to make it powerful. The other one was, and it's a Eve and slurs. 1 billion dance the eyebrow dance in the world, he would go around and make people dance, we women dance, it's supposed to represent on to end violence against women. But I go like so they came to the Philippines. I was member of Gabriella since I was in college. And I go like, we create a dance. And then I looked at the videos, it is a dance of each country. So very cultural, that doesn't push it. So again, make it difficult. So I wrote our song. So I said, it has to be a fighting song, it has to be a brave song. So I wrote the song. Second, I hired a choreographer create the dance for the song, but with an aikido teacher, because I want the steps to be a self defense step. So that when kids in school, learn the dance and the song, they're unconsciously memorizing Aikido self defense moves. So again, make it more difficult, make it more difficult. Okay, so it's not like you're given an assignment and Okay, let's do that. And whatever I always look for. So what can we do to make it more powerful, you know, the impact and effect on people will be bigger? It's always like that. So it's always like, I'm guided. People working with me would say, I'm difficult to work with not difficult because I'm a diva. Difficult because the first question I asked, so how do you make it a notch higher? What is the level higher? And the tend to like, Oh, my God, oh, my God, they thought were already there. But I pushed the envelope even farther and farther. So that's, that's my guiding principle.

James Berges  32:28
Yeah, how can we make it more difficult but also more functional? Just like with advertising, you're sneaking in social messages. But I love with the dancers. Sneaking in Aikido, as self defense says, like, how can we combine things that don't even seem combined? Which I think segues nicely into your latest initiative, the misfits camp, which I'm so excited about. It's, you're combining many things and things that don't seem immediately intuitive. Can you tell us a little bit about Well, let's start with what is misfits camp?

Merlee Jayme  33:01
Okay, so I was, you know, you might dedication to creativity. I've been a creative for 34 years, I've had creative departments of different agencies and my own. My dedication to creativity, and the use has always been strong. I've taught in universities and even hired my students. Okay, so I pretty much love teaching and being a creative. And then while I'm, you know, I early I took my early retirement, I guess, where do I bring my passion now, still creativity and still teaching, of course, I had offers of teaching and all of that, again, I push the envelope, you know, farther teaching, I've already done university teaching and all of that. One day, I witnessed my nephew, a 14-year-old boy, in high performing autistic spectrum, designing a game. And I was amazed I was blown away. In my last creative department. There was no one designing games. I mean, in the Philippines, the kind of education on that the skills you have to go out, learn and come back or be a gamer and being amazed and you know, learn skills yourself, which will take long, but this kid who's in a spectrum was already designing games at 14. I asked the parents what will happen to him in the future, and they're going to nothing. Really, when he graduates the school, there's nothing. Then I started researching all more, more parents. Parents are just worried their kids who are in demand, the neurodiverse kids will just end up in school if they are accepted in school, but at the end of it, there's nothing. So most of the kids I met were under 26 years old 27. Pretty old in the US sense because after graduation from anywhere from special schools or speech therapists and occupational therapists and whatever, just not they. So I said, Oh my gosh, if these are people creative, and I've read and research about creativity and autism, where do they go? Now I have all this energy to offer about about, they could probably have career paths, possibilities, jobs, which I know exists for their skills, friends, in the network, I still have very good friends in clients and in agencies. So I put all of that together, and I failed, we could provide that space. Another thing is because of the lack of education in companies, there will be no safe space for these people. So I failed, step by step, create the training camp, which will find out what they're really really good at. This is not a school, which I will teach, again, all the creative skills, I will just have to assess where they're good at. And then six months of just focusing on that strength, and then get them a job. I mean, not in not so many words. So we are just a bridge, where we could train this wonderful minds, and hopefully find employment for them and make them to a sustainable life for them. Because the parents are worried if we're gone. I don't know what was going to take care of my kids. So that is the biggest worry of parents. So I failed for that. And I my next worry that kept me awake at night is where do I look for these students? And, you know, I kept me awake, like, you know, when I have a bitch you're awake, that kind of RNase just fell into place one through a friend and a friend and I just had lunch with a kid this kids are 21 and a Bob's I will not go through the younger ones because although I partnered with a psychiatrist, and you know, in some experts, I felt 21 and above would be more mature because they have delayed maturity as well. So suddenly, I got kids of different talents. And from then on that was like around April from then on House enjoying again, you know, when you felt like I found that spot finally found a solution, sneaking my values in my ads, that kind of happiness. And when you found I found in my agency, I found people saying the same passion and it felt like more a friendship circle more than just an office, the same kind of happiness and then now it's the happiness of putting things together that no one has done ever. And it might produce the best result ever. Yeah, so that's why they call misfits. My psychiatrist was against it because they go like Merlee they get hired. They're misfits. You know how they are already and then they will be bullied and whatever I go like, in my creative world, no one fits. I've experienced that. Okay, I'm a misfit. Steve Jobs called it a misfit anyway, we are the square pegs in round holes. We'll never fit and why do we want to fit anyway? We don't call its spade a spade. Let's not hide it. The feeling I want people to get into when they hire a misfit like me or a misfits from misfit scamp is they're open to embrace the skills of this special people and not treat them like someone else. And not weird and be weirded out. Know what they're dealing with. Educate them in the best way you can. But be let them be accepted for what the skills they bring into the company. So do not anymore hide because I did have ADHD creatives before they never survived. They would be fired for sleeping because nobody knew they were on medication. Nobody understands. So I want to do it in a different way. Educate as you hire. So that's the only It's one small step for the world to be embracing and accepting neurodiversity. Here, here. 

James Berges  39:22
Yeah, because everyone's a genius. But if you you know the quote, if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, then you'll think it's it's I forgot how the quote ends, actually. But everyone has their own genius, basically, but we shouldn't encourage. There's this whole movement where people are no longer masking their superpowers. Of course, you know, we all have strengths and weaknesses. And as a speech pathologist, that's what we have to write in our IEPs or legal binding documents, you have to find the strengths. Unfortunately, most schools make you want to round out your weaknesses rather than just doubling down on your unique strengths. So I love that misfits calls it what it is, you know, call out? Yeah, I am different. And I have these other superpowers I can offer. But yes, it's kind of punk rock. Are there are there certain avenues you see especially attractive to students? I mean, everyone with autism is different. If you meet one person on the spectrum, you meet one person on the spectrum, but I know you offer film right design, what other avenues do you see your students go down? 

Merlee Jayme  40:32
Basically, is visual arts and digital arts. Okay, so I said to parents, this is the only thing I can teach, and my team to teach, you know, we can teach, because I knew some of the very gifted autistic individuals are good with math, engineering, and whatever, I hope someone would take this on, and teach that because all like we could offer here is visual arts, digital arts, and, you know, content creation film. But what is one of the greatest example in my short stint in the few months I've been into this is, there was a kid who was diagnosed with ADHD, and very quiet, hardly speaks. And I know right away that he was very good with photography and film. So I saw I would give, I would give all kinds of exercises, okay, in the assessment period, but I knew right away, he's not an office kind of person. Okay, he cannot be in an office and be a copywriter or an art director cannot. So that's the power of this misfit scamp. You don't need to just, you know, have a template for everyone. So with this person, I was able to connect him because I saw his natural lighting, this is for lighting and beautiful photographs and films. So I called the director friend, and asked if he could apprentice with him, because this director is a cinematographer and a director at the same time. So I really respect his craft. I go, like, teach him the basics of cinematography. And he goes, it was so excited, because, you know, I put up a small group of young cinematographer said, who I train, so maybe we can bring him in. But he also asked, Can you please help me understand what ADHD is? So this is where I am. It's education. So I'm not just pushing someone for a job. It's also educating one person at a time about the diagnosis of different of this, you know, diversity, because it's nice. So now when I teach one about ADHD, and they get to understand it, they will be open now to be hiring more. So that's just one example of where I've taken this. So I go, I'm so excited. I was just in a shoot last Friday and first time for him to meet the director. And they sat together during the shoot and everything. I mean, see, no, I'm like a proud mom the whole time. But yeah, yeah. So that's, that's an example. So you can imagine if one is like a writer, I have one who is a writer, James is like watching chat GPT in a human form, because I would give a topic, and he would start typing, no research and Googling, whatever, just typing on the computer. And then it stops and they go like, rough Are you done? No, I'm not yet done. Five pages. I mean, I go like, so my thing is, when I see raw talent, how do you now put that into focus into a specific job?

James Berges  43:34
And maybe that's an advantage in the creative industry compared to other more traditional industries where it's so degree focused, because, yeah, it's about mentorship, apprenticeship. Practical Skills. If you can build a portfolio photography, it really speaks for itself, because a picture's worth 1000 words. And I love you know, as I work as a speech pathologist, I've seen programs, training police, policemen and women how to understand autism, so that when they pull someone over with autism, who might be having sensory overload, not to attack them, like actually have some compassion. So I love that you're doing the education for them, as well. As you know, with any movement, I think it can go too far in any direction. It could be like, well, we got to make, you know, the people who have the special needs adapt to the workplace. Like, that's just the cold reality. We have to we have to make them fit in somehow. But then the neurodiversity movement can say, No, you have to accept everyone however they are. But I think there's some practical middle ground where everyone accepts each other from a place of understanding and you're putting the responsibility on both parties to to level up their understanding and their skills. So let's beautiful wrapping up here. I mean, this is I could go on. I love talking about this, but what's next or what's your vision for misfits camp? Is there somewhere you would like to see it? Go in particular?

Merlee Jayme  45:04
Well, everyday for me is like a big challenge when some... last week, a mom with twin boys of 26 years old suddenly comes in. And, you know, they want to be part of the camp and discovering another level, because they have totally different talents from my previous batch. And it's so cute when you see them like I separated them in desks, because if you know when they hire, you can hire to right, so separate, and then made them do storyboarding, because they're there. Their art is a bit advanced. They would call on each other like, Patrick, what frame are you on? And Peter would go, Oh, my frame too. How about very separate and on this, you know, everyday for me is like, it's so much fun. I mean, watching a creative department like this, my future for this is to have to discover more more levels. Because that's the only way I could educate companies on autism. If it's not like a cookie cutter kind of thing. It's always like, oh, this person is very personalized evaluation. This person loves to tell jokes. But at the same time, he is, you know, when you do things like that actually come to think of it. Even without neurodiversity. This is how we should be hiring. So we should like, see the whole persona of the of the person, not just the scales, because when we hire, okay, the portfolio, okay, okay. Okay. I mean, and then copy this, really, it should be. So where I want to take it is to create a whole conversation about talent, creativity, and the right way to hire the right way to treat people. Because in the end, when you have neurodiverse people in your company, this is what he taught me, you become Kinder people. You watch what you say, your words are, you don't curse in the suddenly we're very sensitive to people, which we tend to forget when we're in the height of deadlines and stress. So I feel it's, it's, it's going to open a lot of eyes. The idea of hiring neurodiversity is not new. There are companies hiring them in different jobs. But I want them to have a space in the creative field. In my 34 years, I've never seen anyone never had an office mate, who was neurodiverse. And those ADHD bipolar friends of mine never really came out clean, had a tough time, did not survive the industry. So if you really want a good future, present a good future for them, make companies as well understand and be more inclusive, and diverse. This is what the company is aiming for. Because that's that's your future. I'm seeing that when I was sort of I had a short stint of Chief VI in Asia Pacific wind den. So it was the best job after being a creative chief creative, you know, it's almost like, Oh, my God, I can now suddenly understand the sentiments of not just women, I've always been a vocal person about women's rights and power manager. But I discovered LGBTQ in a deeper sense than your diversity in the person we hired in our Hong Kong office, a data analyst who was in an autistic spectrum, so I felt like that was just scratching the surface. And really, James, when you say, purpose, I've created purpose ads, purpose driven ads. Today I want to be purpose doing is probably not purpose grading anymore. Purpose doing. I've read somewhere you can be purpose being in the future, when I'm not get there, and it's purpose do now. It's not an ad anymore. It's your life. Embracing the actual costs. That's where I am beautiful. Oh, really? I couldn't ask you more, but I'm gonna leave it at that because it's beautiful. Is there anywhere people can find you to connect and learn more? Yes, just go to the misfits camp.com We answer our emails. Like our old websites, nobody answers emails there. We do answer emails, any questions about it anything we, I wrote the book, create different, all the assessments, tests, exercises I gave the students in their assessment period, if you're really creative, put it all together in a book, so that if you want the book, you're not sure if you're creative, do the exercises level one, two, and three, and definitely you're you're really for this job. I mean, so I was very fast about these things. Because if you really want more people engaged about the cause You know, curious speak? It's not it's a very sensitive topic. No one, no one would just go, James I'm autistic. No one would say that or parents calling you, my son is not going to be that easy. So I course it through different channels, just a website where we could be very personnel or the book, if you want to do it on your own. But I'm very sharing I share these things because I, I know how it's not a very open thing yet, especially in our country. It's not. So that's where we are.

James Berges  50:32
And they can, they can slowly connect the dots and travel and collect the bread crumbs from your works. And yeah, thank you for your work to reduce the stigma. And we really appreciate you and thank you for sharing your knowledge.

Merlee Jayme  50:44
Thank you.

Mai Ling  50:48  
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James Berges  51:04
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