Revolutionizing Disability Employment with David D'Arcangelo

. [00:00:00] David D'Arcangelo is a visionary disability rights advocate and founder of Arc Angel Communications Communications. Born legally blind, David has dedicated his career to creating a more inclusive world through groundbreaking initiatives, powerful partnerships, and inspiring leadership.

From presidential appointee and council member of the national council on disability to commissioner of the Massachusetts commission of the blind or for the blind, David led the transformation and modernization of one of our nation's oldest human service agencies. And he's the president of archangel communications.

Safe to say David is an exceptional leader at the intersection of his personal life to private and public sectors. David, welcome to the podcast. Well, thanks so much for having me. It's great to be here. Yeah. So you, as we said in the intro, do a lot, but I'm thinking, let's start with a bit of your personal background.

Can you share a quick version of your personal story? [00:01:00] Like what motivated you to become such a passionate advocate for people with disabilities? Yeah, so, you know, being born legally blind, some of my earliest memories of my parents taking me to the doctor and the doctor's telling me, hey, teach him braille because by the time he's eight years old, he's going to be completely blind.

And then when I was eight, going back to the doctor and then telling me again, you know, teach him braille because by the time he's 12, he's going to be completely blind. Well, it got to a point when I was about 14 years old, I got a new doctor and the new doctor was like, look, if it hasn't happened. You can't just wait for it to happen.

Go live your life. Well, that's all I had to hear was live your life. So, uh, you know, later on, a few years later when I went out and, you know, I was living my life like the doctor said, and I went skiing. I crashed. I detached my retina. I went completely blind. So Uh, then I had my vision restored. So my vision has changed [00:02:00] significantly several times in my life, and it's never been, unfortunately, it's never been great.

So I've always been legally blind and it's changed even further. So, uh, really that basis in my personality is part of the thing that lines up with. My public service, you know, I'm not in it to make a million dollars. I'm in it to really try to improve our human condition. And so you can do that a number of ways.

You can help people individually on a one at a time basis, or you can get into positions where you can influence these policies and laws and regulations and things that you can impact a lot of people at once. So I've done both. I continue to do both. And Yeah, to me it's about improving the human condition and modernizing these programs that are decades, sometimes even older than that.

There's a lot of opportunity here in America to do that. And I've been part of it. Yeah. I love, I love that you take [00:03:00] a yes and approach. It's not either or, and taking that broad perspective. I start at yes. You start at yes, people. Um, you mentioned, you know, your vision has changed multiple times throughout your life.

I'm wondering, like, as part of your, part of your identity, did you ever feel Like, disability was a part of your identity, or if that changed with your vision as these different chapters of your life unfolded? Like, what were the stories you were telling yourself as, as your vision changed, if, if there were certain stories you were telling yourself?

Yeah, you know, it's complicated. Life is complicated, and people People are, there's a lot of sophistication to every individual. You show me a million people, I'll show you a million separate instances of the human condition. So yeah, I mean, identity these days is like a little bit of a loaded term, right?

Like to me, I identify First as an American, and then like as a husband and father and like all those, so [00:04:00] disability is in there somewhere. I don't really necessarily have a ranking of it or whatever, but it is definitely part of who I am and it's definitely shaped me. Particularly the stigma and discrimination that I've faced and continue to face.

You know, I can't tell you how many job interviews I would, I would go on where once they found out you were legally blind, it was like, They would ask you, well, how are you going to do that? And it's like, now I'm problem solving in an interview situation, trying to show them how I can do the job, you know?

So, uh, it's definitely been full of challenges, but opportunities as well. I actually think that if you do it the right way, you can use your disability almost as a qualification because the things that come with disability really. Have to do with things like problem solving and goal setting and all of that.

Those really tend to line up well for most occupations, most work environments. if you can do it the right way. Now it's a little bit [00:05:00] more difficult at times and depending upon your disability, it can be really, uh, you know, just different levels of challenges to be able to not only overcome the disability itself, but oftentimes you're, you're going to overcome your own fears, your own anxieties, your own limiting beliefs, and then let alone whatever society or the employer or.

You know, whoever other outside influences are trying to place upon you as well. So I think that's one of the things with people with disabilities is if I were to meet you in the grocery store and we were to strike up a conversation, I didn't know you and we're talking about, I had a lettuce or, you know, the The special of the day at the supermarket.

Invariably one of the first questions you're going to ask me is, so what do you do now? If you're employed, you're probably going to then tell them what you're employed at and what, what your vocation is, or, you know, what your job is. If you're not employed, you're not going to, you're going to be tending to talk about [00:06:00] other things.

that are not that, right? And so, with two thirds of all working age people with disabilities not in the labor force, unfortunately, that equates to about 70 percent of all people with disabilities not being employed. That is very challenging and that really limits your potential and it hinders your freedom.

It hinders your independence and self determination because what does employment bring? Employment brings financial freedom. Employment brings having, you know, really that, uh, That quality of work that you can feel good about, that gratification that you yourself can achieve something. Additionally, you're adding to society through the work you're doing, through making that company better, whatever, you know, idea it is that you have, or work product that you produce, helps somebody at some point.

So, Yeah, I don't know. It's a little bit of a change. I hope that it does [00:07:00] that answer your question. Yeah, no, I love there's so many angles we can dive into here and I definitely do want to talk more about your specific work with corporations and policy. Um, you know, employment, yeah, it gives such a sense of agency.

And that's sort of a word I've been thinking about a lot when thinking about what you do is, um, you know, on one hand, you mentioned, like, just highlight what you just said, there's the internal struggles, there's the feelings of, what's my identity? How do I build a life without making it a disability? But as you said in other podcasts, we all have varying abilities.

I love that. So how can I make various states of ability at the end of the day, we're all in various states of ability. It's true. If you show me blind people, right, I'll show you people like me who are just legally blind. And I'll show you people who are blind. Fully blind and have no usable vision at all.

The reality is there's as many people who are blind who are like me than there [00:08:00] are who have no vision at all, and most are somewhere in the middle, right? But that doesn't really fit the archetypal metaphor out there in society. Society's like, well, what do you mean you're blind? I don't see a cane or a guide dog like you can see, like, you know what I mean?

So, uh, it's like that with other prevalence types as well. Right. They're the hidden disabilities that we, you know, I wouldn't say hidden, because hidden makes it seem like we're hiding something. What I would say is non apparent. Okay. Non apparent. Yeah. Encourage people to say non apparent because sometimes they want to say, uh, yeah, like, hidden or, you know, secret or things like that.

That makes it like, it's like, this uh, nefarious type of thing or whatever. No, it's just there are apparent disabilities where you can obviously see somebody's in a power chair, right? But then there's non apparent disabilities. Many of the cognitive disabilities is. tend to be non apparent disabilities where just by encountering the person you may or may not [00:09:00] know that they have a disability.

And, and when you're like navigating that through your life, were you feeling, did you always have that sense of each, you know, practical optimism? And maybe I'm mischaracterizing, but that's how I'm assessing your, your attitude. It's like you're meeting reality where it is, but you're also optimistic and not letting it be, um, your whole story.

Like what, how'd you cultivate that attitude? Was it just given to you or, uh, from your parents or faith or, yeah, yeah. Really some combination of that, right? You, you're a product, your, your, your environment. So, uh, it is my upbringing, it's my family and my friends and that, so I get to give them a, a lot of the credit, but it's also my belief.

I, you know, I, I believe in God and I really believe that positive things. Uh, have a way of all working out, right? If you sow positive seeds, you will get positive fruit. [00:10:00] Like, I don't even think that's a belief anymore. Like, I think that's scientifically proven at this point. So, uh, that is, that is really the main thing.

And I believe in America. I believe in our system. I believe in the meritocracy. I believe that when you work hard and you have good ideas, at some point that's going to get rewarded. And, and there's a book, I don't know if you know, Derek Sivers is, he's an author who writes pithy kind of quick prose. Um, but he has a book that came out called, what was it?

Um, it's something like helpful, but not true. And basically the thesis is like, even if something's not, able to be proven factually true, it's still helpful to believe in something like the belief that we live in a meritocracy might become a self fulfilling prophecy for us to act in a way where we feel like we have free will and we have more agency in this world and we're going to align our actions [00:11:00] with that belief, so.

Even if you can't, uh, you know, in this complex world that we live in, prove that everything's a meritocracy or the system is rigged against us, you know, that's the opposite end of that belief spectrum. None of them are wrong or right necessarily, but that belief will change how you approach your life and the actions you take.

So, like, one is probably more helpful just focusing on the things you can control than not. Well, that's exactly it. I mean, really, it's like stoic values 101, like focus on things that you can control, uh, because to focus on things that are out of your control is just a waste of time. It really, unfortunately, it sounds lousy, but it's true, you know, uh, but then the art in that becomes, well, what is within your control, right?

So, yeah, voting and elections, that's within your control. But at the end of the day, that control is only one, [00:12:00] you know, one millionth of however many voters show up, or one, you know, hundred millionth of however many voters show up. So, it is control, it's just maybe not full control, right? So, I just really believe that You know, you get what you give.

I love that. And, and you've given more than just your personal attitude. So let's, let's talk about, yeah, what can we control here besides just your personal experience? Cause you've also affected policy and, um, and societal change on larger areas. I think you've already talked, you talked a little bit, but I wanted to ask you, what keeps you up at night when it comes to disability employment or lack of employment, like what are the biggest issues there?

Yeah, the thing that really keeps me up at night is I know because i've been able to do it that we have better ways Of bringing people with disabilities because it's it's not just about people with disabilities, [00:13:00] right? In order to become employed you need an employer So it's yes It's the people with disabilities and the prospective job applicants and the people right all that But it's also the employer an employer isn't monolithic.

It's everything from small business You You know, small business under the small business, the SBA, the Small Business Administration, they define small business as any business with 500 employees or less. Well, do you know that 99 point, it's like eight or something around there, of all businesses in America are small businesses.

Yet, about 40 percent of all workers in America work for that one half of 1%, the big businesses. That'll just go to show you these big businesses, how big they are. They're gigantic, right? And so business is not monolithic. So oftentimes people with disabilities thrive in both [00:14:00] environments and you know, so it's making sure we're setting policies.

that apply for all different types of disabilities and all different types of businesses. Now, I really believe that when you get government out of the way, we've seen this through data, by the way, I'm not just making it up. When you get government out of the way, you tend to get better results. Both for the people with disabilities and for the businesses.

So how can we modernize our systems again, for not only for the people with disabilities and that whole spectrum, but also for the business community, you need to do both. Yeah, it just makes me think of how cumbersome some of these government websites are, especially the ones that are trying to help people who are the most vulnerable and they're just intensely difficult to navigate.

It's like, let's, let's put some, um, business money or design acumen behind those. Uh, and what do you see as, you know, some of these bigger barriers preventing businesses from being more [00:15:00] accessible and inclusive? Yeah, really, the number one thing is it's the fear of the unknown. If you haven't had people with disabilities in your organization in any way, well then, There's going to be a fear of the unknown there, like oh, how are we going to be able to accommodate this person, what are we going to have to do, you know, our building is inaccessible, does that mean we need to move locations, like all of these things enter the mindset of the leadership and the HR and the managers and everybody else involved with bringing people with disabilities, or potentially bringing people with disabilities into the organization.

So again, on that side, but then also on the person with the disability side, because they're faced with the real conundrum. All right. I've got these benefits that I've been using here to be able to go to school or, you know, to be able to get retrained or whatever, because people with disabilities encountered disability in many different ways.

Some are born with it, some age into it and everything in between. So, You know, it's on their side as [00:16:00] well with the benefits. For example, why do I want to go to work at entry level job, flipping burgers at McDonald's or working at Walmart or wherever that some of those first job experiences happen where you're making low dollars, right?

Why do I want to go to work there when I can get hooked up with these benefits and they're going to pay for my food? They're going to pay for my health care. They're going to send me cash. They're going to pay for my housing. And all of those benefits are going to far exceed what I'm going to make at an entry level wage.

Right? So it's again, both sides of the equation. It's not just one, it's both sides of it. Like we have these, uh, some call them perverse incentives or disincentives, however you want to term it. But again, people with disabilities are smart. They're going to make a value determination and they're going to say well if I can get more in benefits Then why am I going to take [00:17:00] two buses and have to wake up early to be in this entry level job to, you know, total away there for years before maybe I can get another job and move up incrementally.

So those are real things that those are real barriers right now that are in the way that we've got to try to figure out. And we have plans, but, you know, Congress can't agree that today is, um, what day is today? Monday. So, you know, it like takes. It takes all sides to be able to get to some level of agreement to modernize these programs.

You know, some of the first laws were put in place back with John Adams, you know, we're talking hundreds of years and even other laws that are more air quotes modern. The Rehabilitation Act is still in place. That was put in place in 1973. Well, a lot of things have changed since then and we can modernize and we get, but here's the thing with leadership comes responsibility.

And when [00:18:00] You make change, you're going to be prepared for those repercussions. I felt those repercussions. You know, when you make change, people then come at you and they're like, you're changing things. And even if it is for the better, some of the people, they don't view it that way. They view it as well.

You're changing mine or you're shrinking the pie for me, or, you know, you may get more difficult for me. I don't know. I just really think that the rising tide lifts all ships. And when you fix things. Well, it benefits everybody. Yeah, well said. And it's, you know, universal design is kind of based on that principle that it's not just to help people with disabilities or varying.

But yeah, it's for everyone. We need the rising tide. Um, I use that analogy all the time. That example all the time. Have you ever used an automatic door opener? Yes. Why? Well, because I was pushing a carriage, or I was pushing a stroller, or I need an XYZ. Have you ever used an X escalator? Yes. Why? Well, [00:19:00] again, same thing.

You know, the, I don't know if you're aware of this. Here, just, I'm just outside of Boston. In downtown Boston, there's a monument from where Alexander Graham Bell did his first famous phone call. Hello, Watson, come in here. Right? Well, why was he toiling away with the phone, trying to discover A device that could help him communicate with his deaf wife and deaf mother.

So that spurred innovation that spurred the telephone, which then led to the internet and everything else. So people with disabilities. Trying to trying to find opportunities out of the challenges that come with your disability like people want to say Oh people of all abilities. Okay, fine. I'm fine with positive language.

But at the end of the day disability is When you look at it, it's there for a reason. That dis is Latin for lack of. So lack of [00:20:00] ability. That's not saying that people with disabilities don't have ability. No, in fact, the opposite is true. You can't have a disability without first having ability. I just choose to focus on ability, right?

Now, but that doesn't mean that you can just, Oh, do do do, everybody's the same. No, people with disabilities are encountering, and one of the things that, one of the threads that runs through all of the varying definitions of disability, would you look at U. S. Federal Code, by the way? There are 67 different instances of disability in U.

S. Federal Code. And between all the programs, there are dozens of different definitions, air quotes, definitions of disability. Right? The definition that we use to measure people with disability is different than the Americans with Disabilities Act. That's different than what's in Social Security's definition.

And that definition is different than what's in the Rehab Act. And in WIOA and all these other laws, right? So, anyways. The thread that runs through all [00:21:00] of those definitions is this notion of substantial limitation. Right? So in some way, a person with a disability is substantially limited. Well, to me, when you can ameliorate those or overcome those, that's a great qualification.

I actually think people with disabilities, when they do that, are better. Because they have to overcome that adversity. They have to overcome those challenges. And I don't know, I just think that's a great thing. And that's what we're trying to do here when I'm talking about improving the human condition.

So there's the policy part, there's companies making more accessible and universal design. And then you mentioned innovation in Alexander Graham Bell. It made me think of like Star Trek. Actually, I think my mom told me, so you tell me if this is true, that the idea for automatic doors came from Star Trek.

Um, and so sci fi can inspire the [00:22:00] culture and, you know, obviously that helps a bunch of people, just such a simple idea. I'm wondering, you know, as you're talking about the free market and innovation. How will technology and maybe after COVID, as we all went remote, we realized we can make a lot of more modifications and accommodations for everyone that our way of working can be challenged on the drop of a dime.

Um, just kind of a general question, but do you think there's certain tech advancements, whether it's AI or remote work that are really going to change disability policy or force the hand on that just because technology moves faster than policy are oftentimes? James, you are right on the spot. I completely agree.

Yes. And so Covid was terrible, right? People died and upset society in a lot of ways. Okay, so let's not revisit that. But Let's say that there were certain gains there and silver linings there, one of them being, [00:23:00] we've seen the rate of people with disabilities becoming employed improve. And I think part of it is due to this remote work and everything else.

Why? Well, because the traditional barriers for people with disabilities is transportation. And when you can ameliorate those by remote work, by telework, by You know, all this technology that we've experienced. I think that's a good thing for people with disabilities. Right? That's a, that's a good takeaway from a bad situation, right?

So there's that. Additionally, I do see the rise of AI being able to, uh, take care of tasks and everything else. Now, there is a downside to that as well. Like, look at what we're experiencing right now with, uh, AI and particularly like autonomous vehicles that are coming. Okay. Well, the number one Job in america is long haul truck driver or transportation Okay I don't think anybody thinks it's a good idea to, even [00:24:00] if that technology is there, to all of a sudden, oh, let's put all those people out of work just because now we can have an autonomous vehicle do it.

No, no, no. I think we need to deliberately manage that change to figure out how to do it, because we don't want to completely change it. You know, put everybody out of work. Number one. Number two, is it even better? Like, do we even have the sense that it is better? You know, just like everybody's like, Oh, I can write all this stuff.

If you if you put into AI, you recognize that what it produces out while it can be okay. It's not great, right? So there's still a ways to go on all of this technology, and we've got to figure out ways to be able to integrate it so that It doesn't hurt people that it is indeed helping people. That's why you invent the better mousetrap.

That's why you invent these devices. You invent these devices to help people and to improve the human condition. So I [00:25:00] do think I'm optimistic that we'll be able to navigate it because it'll be in these companies best interest to do so. But again, you've got to have. The corporate side, the business side, small business side, government, all of that, like we've got to get back to unity, back to harmony that we were at mostly before COVID.

And it seems like COVID has been like this huge disruptor and all these paradigm shifts has happened at the same time. And as a result. You know, yeah, the political stuff, but as a result, there's all this other angst out there and uncertainty in all of these things, because technology is disrupting, you know, the things that we've gotten used to for so long have changed so quickly, you know, so I think we'll adapt to that.

I'm optimistic. I believe in America and Americans more importantly. So, we'll be better than ever, it's just a matter of time. Hear, hear. America's, we'll, we'll over, [00:26:00] well, if we look at history, I think there's always been fears of technology taking jobs at, you know, the Industrial Revolution, and even if you go back as far as Socrates, they're like, if we start writing things down, who's going to have oral tradition and carry that, uh, we'll lose our skill for memory, um, and so You know, arguably our skills are going down as AI takes more cognitive load, but as you were saying, hopefully it improves the human condition and lets us do things that we're uniquely good at.

Here's the thing I submit to all my friends when they're so worried about that. I said, oh really? Okay, so you can't go on eBay right now and buy a record or buy an 8 track tape or buy an old phone or an old adding? But the point is, yeah, they may get supplanted, but they're still there, right? So we tend to go for the shiny new thing, but the reality is we still rely upon tried and true, [00:27:00] and again, I'm using air quotes, technology that maybe it's not high tech or maybe it's not cutting edge tech.

Maybe it wasn't, you know, within the past five or 10 years, you know, but the calculator that was made a hundred years ago. We're still using that same ad, you know what I mean? Like, so, so yeah, things will change, but many things will remain the same. And, and human connection and trust will actually become more rare as deep fakes and, you know, trust is already diminishing.

So it's like, I think people, my prediction, just looking at all these things is people will have more opportunity for small business in the sense of personal brands. Cause if you can tell your story, we always connect a story no matter what that's, uh, from Socrates to now it's like, if I can connect facts, not just in a logical manner, but in a way that makes you feel something.

That's going to compel you to trust me as a person. So there will always be this artisan market for [00:28:00] human touch and human emotion, I believe. Um, yeah, there's so much, so much interesting stuff. I mean, it just makes me think of, you know, you're talking about the sense of agency and disability payments with, um, uh, what's it called?

You know, if you're on disability SSI, SSDI, housing, food. And healthcare keep going. I mean, there's benefits for all kinds of different things. And, uh, Andrew Yang, the former presidential candidate for United States, he talked about this, you know, AI automating truck drivers, one of the largest job categories in the United States.

And he was kind of saying this, you know, whether you have a disability or not, if you're going to be disrupted out of a job, we're going to have to figure out different incentives. But at the end of the day, him, and I think you're saying the same thing, and I would agree, people still want to feel useful.

They don't want to just, most people don't want to sit and feel like they're not doing anything. It's just that we [00:29:00] don't want to do jobs we don't care about. Everybody has something to give. Yep. And so I'm hoping that, uh, if anything, technology will enable us to give our gifts more and not focus on jobs we don't want to do.

Yeah. I mean, but it's about, you know, any large organization, whether it's the United States of America or a state or a city or a corporation or whatever group. The only constant is change you it it's so then it becomes about change management. And just with technology, it becomes a little faster. And it becomes, you know, because again, we can't think like monolithically, like everybody's on the same page with technology.

Obviously not right. So that all takes time. Uh, you know, The United States is an aircraft carrier. It's not a speedboat. So if you're going to change things, it takes a long time to be able to turn that ship and you got to give orders and you got to move ballast from one side to the other. And you got to make sure you, you know, It's [00:30:00] all, it's all, uh, accounted for and in the plan.

I love it. And, and so as we move, you know, this aircraft carrier and as we move beyond the 30th anniversary, I believe, of the, uh, ADA, Americans with Disabilities Act, what do you see as the next frontier in disability rights legislation? It's a big question, but like, or what do you see coming or what do you hope to see coming in terms of legislation?

Yeah, well, I remember ADA was 1990. So I think that's 34 years or something, right? It's going to be in July. So, uh, and then, you know, the ADA Amendments Act. Uh, I'd like to just see more simplification to tell you the truth. So what the ADA did was protect It created this large definition so that we could have like the broadest measure of people with disabilities so that all those people would be protected against discrimination as because of their disability.

We don't want anybody discriminated against. And by the way, everybody agrees on that. [00:31:00] Republicans, Democrats, conservative, liberal, everybody agrees, no discrimination. Okay. And so what I would like to see next is the iteration that deals with, all right, how do we get rid of these disincentives? Okay. It's not right that we're essentially paying people not to work and not getting the talents out of them, both for themselves to be gratified and independent and self determination, but also for society to be able to make good, you know, Somewhere in that pool of people with disabilities that is not in the labor force, there is a cure for cancer, there is the next great app or device or, you know, farm product or food or something.

There's a great idea in there, but you're never going to realize that if those people are on the sidelines. So, it's a two step challenge. Step one, get as many of those people with disabilities into the labor force as possible. And then step two, which we're much [00:32:00] better at solving is once they're in the labor force, let's get them employed.

Right? So we can do it. It's just a matter of focusing and, you know, building in senses and getting people to take the actions that we need to take. to get it to happen. And it's about modernization. But when you do that, right again, the old guard is holding on to the to what they have known. And so when you disrupt that causes the angst and, you know, then it becomes difficult to do so.

Yeah, I think you've made the case, though, for disability rights and inclusion in employment to be a top five, um, issue, because it really does affect everyone, not just people with disabilities. It affects our whole economy, it affects so many Yeah, I mean, one of the tenets of disability is independence and self determination.

I think if you ask every disability advocate in America, that would be in their top three. Independence and [00:33:00] self determination, right? Right. And then discrim, like, not discriminated and, you know, okay, so there's other things too. But that independence and self determination, that is employment. If you're employed and you have your own wage and your own money that you, and then you're not inhibited by going over income limits and anything else, That is independence and self determination.

That's our system. That's our way of life. So the more you can become employed, the more independence and self determined termination that can bring you, right? So that's a, that's a good thing. I don't know anybody who's going to say that isn't a good thing. Now, is that appropriate for everybody with a disability?

And is that appropriate for every scenario? We can debate that and good people can differ on that. Like for example, one of the things that I'm trying to do is move the dialogue on what's in the Workforce Innovation Opportunity Act or WIOA, right? WIOA sets this definition for [00:34:00] what, air quotes, competitive integrated employment is.

Competitive integrated employment, I would assert the way it is in the law and, you know, effectuated through the regulations, is neither competitive, may not constitute employment, and is probably not integrated. So it's like we have this law that says, Oh, we should do that. But yet then, then it's doesn't really do that.

And it's like, Come on, we got to We've really got to fix that. And if you believe in people like I do, then you believe we can do it. But if you're cynical and you don't believe, and you just, no, let's keep things the same, why would you want to keep things the same with 70 percent of working age people with disabilities, not employed?

I don't want to keep that. I want to turn that around completely. I think that people with disabilities should be in the labor force just as much as people without disabilities. You're here. You're here. Well, David, I, I love the [00:35:00] passion. I'm with you. And where can people, you know, if they want to follow up on this conversation, where should I send people to learn more about the work you're doing, which is amazing.

And any other links or resources, whether it's employment or, or just your podcast, what you're up to. Thanks for the opportunity. I appreciate it. Uh, yeah, I'm here out of my corporate headquarters in Melrose, Massachusetts at Archangel Communications. You can find us at archangelcommunications.

com. That's A R C A N G E L communications. Com and then we've got several programs there that we're doing. Disability Employment solutions.com. And again, we talk about this stuff on our podcast, save As Ability, which is save as ability.com. Or you can find us on YouTube, Spotify, apple, wherever you find all your podcasts.

It is a vlog. And podcast though, so we do it video and audio as well. You can check us out there. And of course for your promotional [00:36:00] button needs, we have angelbuttons. com that we do as well. And we're a disability owned business enterprise here and we're just trying to improve the human condition. So I'm working with all types of organizations, governments, large corporations, uh, but I'll work with anybody, small business, nonprofit, it doesn't matter.

If you want to get more inclusion of people with disabilities in your organization or program you're running, call me and I'll help you do it. Amazing. David, you really, David Archangelo, you are the archangel of disability advocacy. Thank you. Well, thank you, James. I appreciate it. And I appreciate the work you and May do.

This is great. Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate that. And we'll link all of those in the show notes so people can find them. And uh, David, thanks for coming on. We'll talk soon. Okay, James. Thank you. I hope you have a great day. You too. Likewise. Thank you. All right. I'll pause the recording there. Nice. Uh, I [00:37:00] think I can, I'm always afraid to pause it on zoom, but I'll just end it.

But um, wonderful. Wow. Great. Great. Thank you. Give me my best. I shall, David. I shall. Um, and I'll follow up like when we're going to post this episode and everything else, but it's usually after double check the date, I think, and usually are you next either two weeks or a month, but I'll get back to you through email.

Got it though. Yeah. All right. I'm here for you. If you need anything, man, let me know. I appreciate you. It's such good stuff. I could talk to you all day. Honestly. Likewise. Likewise. Likewise. All right. Well, have a good day, David. Have a great day. Thank you. Bye. Bye. Good work. Appreciate it. Thank you, too