The Intersection of ADHD, Women, and Asian Culture with Kim To

0:00

James

Do you think you have ADHD, whether or not you have a diagnosis or you're providing services and support in this area, then you're not going to want to miss this deep dive with Kim To she's a courageous person who's embraced her adult diagnosis and is leading the community as a coach and an advocate.

0:16

Mai Ling

Yeah, James, she's young smart and she's so committed to helping people move through the challenges associated with ADHD and I was personally interested and her lens on that intersectionality between the Asian culture and this diagnosis. And really because it's related to my book, which is coming out February 20th Becoming an Exceptional API Leader. And on that day, the digital download is only a dollar 99 and it will be spotlighting 15 stories including my own about having an Asian heritage and how this affects the disability perspective and experience.

0:47

James

I love it because it's like it's something that I don't think is talked about enough is this intersection of culture and views of disability. And you know, the episode is so enlightening of two of you talking about your culture and the Asian community and, ADHD specifically because she mentions that ADHD covers genders across culture, ages and families. But depending on your cultural background, it can be met with shame, acceptance, compassion, and depending on that cultural lens and your family dynamics, it can really lead to more understanding and compassion or it could lead to sweeping the diagnosis under the rug and then you don't have the strategies and tools that you need. So love that she also touches on the issue of how much we want to share as disability advocates. Like when does your brand equal your disability?

So if you're on Instagram or TikTok or just in this digital world, you know, you put yourself out there and it's all about authenticity. But how much do you want your disability to be your brand?

So in this episode, she dives into that and you'll learn about the pros and cons of being an advocate in this modern world.

1:55

Kim To

As you realize more women are getting diagnosed, you realize that this is not an isolated thing that this is actually we are all supporting each other to come out to share our stories to share our voice and share our experiences, which has been the most amazing thing is that when you start sharing your experiences, everyone else starts coming out.

2:15

Mai Ling

Welcome to the Exceptional Leaders podcast. I'm Mai Ling Chan and together with James Burgess, we're getting you top tips and resources for building and scaling your disability offerings straight from the forefront of disability advocacy and leadership. 

James

For our listeners who may or may not have ADHD considering if you do here are some quick interesting statistics we found. One, there isn't a lot of research available on entrepreneurs with ADHD but a study conducted by U CS F University of California, San Francisco found that entrepreneurs are six times more likely to report having ADHD than other professionals, which is just like amazing. I think I forget if it was Steve Jobs. Well, we know Elon Musk is neurotypical, but it just seems to be some of these high level entrepreneurs have either autism or ADHD And I would love to learn more about that. Also, entrepreneurs with ADHD often report that their ADHD contribute to their creativity, resilience and persistence, which are key qualities for entrepreneurial success. However, they also face challenges of course, such as time management organization and maintaining focus on long term goals. I'm reading this and I feel like I might have ADHD but I don't have a diagnosis.

3:38

Mai Ling

That's why we do the show.

3:40

James

Yeah, it's like, is this a confessional? Is this an intervention? We don't know entrepreneurs with ADHD? Of course, you know, we have to use strategies to manage the symptoms and focus on your strengths when so much of society focuses on weaknesses. But you know, there's more and more technology and tools coming out. And we have some episodes that cover that such as the one with Chris Wang and Brian Dinner who are creating software and tools for people with ADHD to help manage the hard parts of having that diagnosis. Lastly, networking with other entrepreneurs with ADHD is very helpful, seeking guidance and support. I mean, this comes as no surprise that we're human. We want support and we want to feel community. But I think it's specifically important for people with ADHD and who are not neurotypical to feel like you're not alone. And luckily, that's easier than possible in the digital age.

4:35
Mai Ling

Absolutely. And the statistics that interest me, James are the ones about women in ADHD. And I think we all know this but boys are diagnosed more frequently than girls, actually 2 to 1 up to 3 to 1 in Children. And the data, the new data is now showing that women have gone undiagnosed until later in life. And again, I'm part of that data. So I'm personally so grateful to Kim for sharing her story. I found her as I was early in my journey to getting my diagnosis of ADHD. And as I said, I'm sharing that in my book. And during that process, James, I uncovered my own experience with having a disability and being in a home that was guided by Asian culture and it's just fascinating and I'm finding this is actually a pretty prevalent experience for those of us who do have that Asian cultural background. So it's been interesting to look, you know, more into this disability community. So I'm really excited to share these revelations and intimate perspectives with everyone. And we're hoping that with the book and the collective stories that we can move towards more acceptance and support.

5:33

James

Yeah, the more we share, the more we feel connected and that's the perfect transition to our conversation with Kim to. So let's hear all about her exceptional journey with ADHD. But before you do, please just share this episode with one person you feel would find it valuable because again, these stories are like candles, they just light other candles and the more you help, the more advocacy gets out there and reach more people. So let's get to the episode.

6:03

Mai Ling

Well, I'm really excited to have our guest today, Kim to because we met back in July of 2023 it is now January of 2024. And I knew the minute that I met her that I was going to want to have her and her story shared with us. So welcome Kim.

6:18

Kim

Oh, thank you so much. And I knew when I met you, I wanted to speak to you about my story and share my experience. So thank you for connecting.

6:25

Mai Ling

Excellent. I feel like you have grown so much in the last couple of months and I've seen it, you know, a lot on LinkedIn. I don't know where else you are because I don't actually follow you on the other ones. But I definitely want you to share with us your journey to becoming an influencer in the ADHD Asian women, neuro-diverse coaching space. I mean, you're just nailing all the categories. So, yes, tell us all about this.

6:49

Kim

Thank you, affirming me. So I was diagnosed with ADHD during the pandemic when I was working in quite you know, difficult job in finance. And of course, all the, you know, all the shame and the guilt that comes with that, you know, feeling like I was, wasn't enough et cetera. And when I realized it was ADHD, it made sense, but also didn't make sense at the same time. And when I was looking around to learn more about it, I didn't really see any representation in terms of, you know, experts talking about ADHD from a, from an Asian perspective, you know, from a cultural perspective. And so I just thought, right, if I can't see anyone speaking about this, I want to be speaking about this. So it started off with me just blogging, my experiences of being Asian having late ADHD diagnosis, feeling shame, feeling guilt, and that kind of blew up. And then it became something where I wanted to do more work on. And so that's why I trained to be an ADHD coach because I really do believe in the power of coaching to empower people with ADHD and neurodiversity, especially in our community, which is devices not spoken about. There was a lot of shame involved with mental illness. So I'll stop there, but it really started off with not seeing any representation and my own experience of feeling quite isolated with ADHD.

8:12

Mai Ling

Thank you so much. I hate to age us, but I just want to share with listener the importance of this is I found Kim and I believe it was through a blog post and it was a, I can't remember the site and I apologize because I want to give them credit. But if I find it, I'll put in the show notes. So Kim had a very transparent open and genuine post about just her journey. And it was pretty amazing because as I was reading it, this was before I received my diagnosis. And I remember going wow, that sounds like me and I've been saying this over and over Kim because my journey to ADHD has been a little bit of a, a slow on boarding, you know, and and I remember reading that and then also seeing friends of mine putting posts out there and I'm going, wow, you know, that's interesting. I never would have guessed or, oh yeah, that's obvious, you know, So I was going through all of these different third party kind of experiences, but it was like a two year journey for me. But your voice was so strong for me because you touched on this cultural intersectionality of being Asian, of being a woman and also being an adult woman. And I was about to say, I don't want to age us because I'm a generation Xer. And just for our listeners, you don't have to tell us how old you are, but you know what area are you in?

9:29

Kim

Of age? Yeah, I look so young, by the way, just the Asian, you look young as well, but I'm a millennial. So I'm in the millennial category, definitely a nineties baby. I was there when the old, the old Nokia phones and everything like that. So we can all make your millennial. Ok?

9:50

Mai Ling

But that also puts us in the perspective of the same thing as my generation is, we weren't really diagnosing girls with ADHD, you know, for all of these years, we were still seeing it in boys, you know, boys, they're busy, they're jumping around, they can't sit still, you know, all of that. And it's only recently that we are really starting to look at what does it look like in girls. And there's the Chatty Kathy, but then there's also the inattentive. And so we're also looking at these different types of ADHD was hyperactive inattentive hyperactive. Mixed. And then hyperactive, well, I think that was sorry, it's ADHD hyperactive.

10:27

Kim

Exactly.

10:28

Mai Ling

Yeah, that's mixing all these up.

10:29

Kim

No, you're good. Yeah, generally there's two types.

10:31

Mai Ling

Yeah. So when we now look at this as adults, you know, it looks differently and we've also developed our own strategies and so it's not as classic, you know, as what it would look like when you're a child and you, you really don't know what to do. So, one of the things I wanted to ask is when you first started coming out now July to January things move so fast. It's just a couple of months. But seriously, when you started coming forward, I didn't see as many Asian women that were raising their hand and coming forward. Have you seen a shift in that now between July and January of 2024?

11:06

Kim

Definitely. Yeah, I've definitely seen a lot more voices, a lot more clients coming forward and actually clients of mine saying I've had such a good experience that I, I want to be a coach now as well to support the Asian community in this. So I definitely feel like more voices, I think maybe shedding of shame because as you realize more women are getting diagnosed, you realize that this is not an isolated thing that this is actually we are all supporting each other to come out to share our stories to share our voice and share our experiences, which has been most amazing thing is that when you start sharing your experiences, everyone else thought coming out and sharing your experiences. But I've seen that especially in the Asian community, reaching out to advocacy work, getting people in a speaker. So it's definitely been very beautiful to see.

11:57

Mai Ling

Excellent and you're just putting me right in the space where I want to be, which is to talk about our upcoming book, which is coming out February 20th. It's called Becoming an Exceptional API Leader, which is Asian Pacific Islander. It is the fourth book in my Becoming Exceptional Leader series and it has been an amazing journey for myself and for the 14 other co authors who have joined me on this. And Kim, I was so excited when you said yes, when I offered to send you an advance copy. And so for our listeners, could you give them just, it's a little bit of an idea of what they can expect from the book.

12:33

Kim

Yeah, absolutely. Now, I wanted to highlight how amazing it was to speak to you about your ADHD journey because you know, more women are coming out and speaking about their experiences. And definitely your experience was an experience. I'm very excited to read.

So any readers will be reading the book, they will get to understand your experience of getting diagnosed. And that is something that is super exciting to read and also just the fact that all the co authors are from the API community that is super rare, you know, you rarely see. Even though I say more Asian people coming out speaking about ADHD and other topics, it's still quite rare to see that. So visibly, especially in a format of a book. So I'm super excited to be, feel empowered and to read your journey as well in print and in writing. So all the readers will be, that's something that is going to look forward to you. Once you read it, going to be amazing and empowering.

13:31

Mai Ling

Thank you so much, Kim. We really, really value your support and I want to deep dive into a little bit of this area where you're talking about the Asian culture of not being so open and transparent. The subtitle of the book is intimate stories from 15 quote, silent voices, change maker. And so again, going back to you're the millennials, right? But the newer kids, you know, our younger kids are just, you know, they're so comfortable with having difficult conversations and they're good with confrontation. You know, they're advocating for themselves. How did it feel for you and how is it for you that you're kind of sandwiched in the middle of these two very different generations and you're an influencer?

14:12

Kim

Yeah. You know, it's very interesting, I think you're right about the Gen Z.

They, they are a lot more open to talk about difficult topics. You know, I coach clients that are millennials upwards. And Gen Z and I do see a huge difference in sort of your willingness to talk about difficult things. But especially in the Asian community, I think there's this overriding cultural feeling that talking about mental health and neurodiversity is taboo. So just to share, you know, when I got my diagnosis and I left my job in finance, I told my mom about my diagnosis and that I needed to take medication for it. And you know, she responded, it sounds like you just studied so much. It drove you crazy. So, you know, the comments around that about mental health, ADHD neurodiversity, it, it seems to be very connected to, you know, you're crazy, doesn't exist in our community, etcetera. So being in the middle of, of these generations, I think the difference I see is that there's just a lot more information definitely with Tik Tok, a lot more education about ADHD a lot more people openly sharing about their experiences. And I think Gen Z are very open to consuming that and consuming different ideas through social media, which is why I think, you know what you're doing, writing your book. It's, it's great to showcase, you know, you from your generation about your journey because then we don't separate so much about OK, you know, these people from this generation because ADHD is, it's cross cultural, it's cross gender, it's cross generation. So I think that's the difference I see which is openness. And so more people across generations that could be more open about the experiences that will really help.

15:59

Mai Ling

If you're like me, you can't get enough of books, podcasts, blogs and other ways to find out how to create grow and scale. That's why I brought together 43 disability focused leaders to give you more of what you're looking for. You will hear their stories in three best selling books which focus on general offerings, augmentative and alternative communication and speech language pathology. I invite you to search for becoming an exceptional leader on Amazon. So you can learn intimate start up pearls of wisdom and keep growing your brilliant idea. Now let's get back to our amazing interview.

16:34

Mai Ling

So how are you coaching the person who's coming to you? And they now need to talk to their family because I went through this and I share a little bit of that chapter. You know, there's, there's this new word, gas lighting and I don't know if that's really what's happening, but it's more of denial. Like I feel like, like you just said like, no, we don't have that in our culture. You know, you're just looking for an excuse, you're lazy. And these are things that I'm telling you if you're not Asian people are shocked that I was talked to like and still am. You know, my dad is very direct and blunt, you know, hard work gets you what you want and they don't understand that this is in your DNA. You know. So how are you helping, how are, how are you helping the people that you're coaching to move through that phase of connecting with family on this?

17:19

Kim

Yeah. No, I think it's amazing that you share that because it's definitely something the Asian community, this idea of shame, which really holds us back. And this idea of be grateful, keep in your lane, don't be different. All these things adhd are not affects people from Asian cultures and if you're not, you know, from the Asian culture, you won't get how much that really affects your choices in life. So to do anything different, it feels like you're, you know, going out of lane and disappointing your parents and that guilt really does eat up at your self esteem, right? So I'm really glad that you're sharing that experience and writing about it in terms of coaching clients to address this with family members.

18:03

I think at first it's about addressing where, where your sense of shame comes from, you know, your language that you're using on yourself, does it come from culture? Does it come from your upbringing? And if it does, will it help you to address that or confront that right? Will that increase, you know, your happiness, your happiness in terms of relationship dynamic.

18:29

I have to really ask that because it takes a lot of energy to confront that with your family to get them to understand. And if it doesn't increase your sense of who you are, if it doesn't increase your sense of well being, then I don't know why it would be worth engaging. And the reason I say that is because unfortunately with the older generation, it, you tend to be stuck in your ways and it could be hard to shift mindsets. So if you don't have energy for that, then I would say divert that energy. But if you really do think it will improve your relationship with your parents understanding then definitely find ways to slowly build towards that conversation.

19:12

I can keep going on about this. But the reason why I say that is because with my mom, I realized a lot of my trauma with my mom from an early age was she probably has ADHD and she, you know, her mood swings and her trauma. I see it now it's probably ADHD and the more that I talk about my ADHD or put in snippets of it, the more it helps her understand that that's probably ADHD and it builds a better relationship between us two and I become more compassionate towards her. So obviously that I have to be in the right mindset, have the right energy for that. Sorry, I saw you giving a thumbs up.

19:50

Mai Ling

So I, I'm nodding my head. Yeah, I'm right there with you.

19:54

Kim

Yes, I totally appreciate that. It is very genetic.

19:57

Mai Ling

So, for our listener, you know, if you are in this family and you're starting your journey or you're seeing other family members, we have been able to see just the, where it's showing up, you know, in, in historically currently, you know, all of that and, and I think it's helpful, Kim because then you can see, oh, you know, look, I have an older related relationship and they're doing really well and, or I have this person and if they had an open mind, you know, maybe we could do things that are a little more objective, you know, I don't know. I mean, there's all these different things and maybe it's not that at all.

20:31

Kim

Right.

20:31

Mai Ling

I mean, that's totally possible because that's another thing that I'm finding is there is a negative sentiment around this and saying that, oh, everybody wants to get an ADHD diagnosis and that is just not true.

20:43

Kim

It's not, everybody does not want a diagnosis of anything but having a diagnosis really sheds a light and gives you all of these new opportunities and new ways to look at yourself and how you show up in the world and you know, all the, how you've been struggling and you didn't even realize it so amazing.

21:00

Mai Ling

And Kim, I'm so glad that people have you to turn to and have you to be able to help to guide them.

21:06

Kim

Yeah, I know and also the same with you, we need more, you know, Asian leaders talking about neurodiversity in a positive way, right? And to really share kind of share that burden because I often find it a burden to be an advocate because you have to be so open, you have to give energy, you have to, you know, give yourself to inspire others. So, you know, also really great thing that you're also doing that so that I don't feel too alone in this process of advocating and supporting others. So the thing I would say about everyone getting a, ADHD diagnosis, yes, we are seeing a lot more, a lot more women getting a diagnosis. And that's because of the chronic underdiagnosis of women, the chronic neglect of women in the health system, you know, always being told that we're just depressed that, you know, it's probably nothing, you're just probably depressed. And when actually it's ADHD or neurodiversity, so we are starting to not fight back.

But, you know, we know ourselves more than anybody else on this planet. So we are asking for that diagnosis for a reason.

22:14

And I always say I wouldn't put energy and effort into getting a diagnosis unless I truly believe that this explains my life. So as much as I would love to put my energy elsewhere, I'm doing it and getting a diagnosis because I strongly believe it explains my life and I strongly believe that getting it would help me understand myself better and help build better relationships with other people around me. I'm not saying I'm excusing my behavior, but at least I can go and say, you know, if I say impulsive things, it's probably, I'm having an ADHD moment, you know, not, it's not because I'm spiteful. It's not because I'm abrasive. My symptoms are just not controlled in that conversation and it's good to have something like that to explain.

23:01

Mai Ling

Right.

23:01

Kim

So an excuse. So an excuse for anything really. But it's just, at least there's a set of experiences that has a name and that actually is very empowering in itself.

23:12

Mai Ling

Oh, my gosh, I'm all welled up here again.

23:16

Kim

Well, I just feel like there's so many connections and it's like, gosh, Kim, you know, me and that's what we need out here, right?

23:22

Mai Ling

Is that people who can just relate and I didn't know that that was such a big word, Kim. You know, I just, the buzzing in my head I thought was normal, you know, and I'm figuring out that it's special.

23:34

Mai Ling

Yeah.

23:35

Kim

No, it, you know, and it's normal for us.

23:38

Mai Ling

That is a normal existence for us to have, you know, 100 tables open in your brain to always feel, you know, this buzzing of ideas of creativity.

23:49

Kim

So actually, you know, I always say my ADHD diagnosis saved me because I stopped conforming to what I thought my parents wanted me to conform to what I thought my society said I should conform to as a female of color, as an Asian person, you know, doing well at university at work. I should be in this industry. My ADHD diagnosis actually set me free to accept that. You know what my brain is different. I have 100 ideas all the time. Why am I suppressing that? Why am I wasting my life force suppressing those wonderful ideas? Why don't I just go and execute them? But I'll just accept that. So that's one thing that I would encourage people, you know, on their journey.

24:32

If they think they are neurodivergent or have ADHD really think about that possibility of what that looks like to explore this a little bit more psychologically mentally for your career. So it's definitely me my diagnosis.

24:47

Mai Ling

Excellent. So I want to deep dive a little bit into this area of advocacy. Disability advocacy is probably not something that you thought of as a career goal. You know, this is a very niche space, right? And so now here you are a disability advocate and I'm also experiencing this a little bit myself as I start to create, you know, what's my brand and what am I doing in the world?

So I want to ask you, you touched on this a little bit.

25:10

How exhausting is it to constantly be connecting yourself to the ADHD label, right? And also thinking about this other flip side of it, which is you don't want to be an inspiration for people.

25:23

Kim

Yeah. No, absolutely. I fell into advocacy and I'm sure everyone,, set off wanting to be an advocacy. I think they just set off wanting to connect with people wanting to not feel alone. And I think that's the beauty of like being different is that you want to meet others who are also different and feel safe because that's, I think that's every human need, right?

25:45

But it is exhausting because sharing yourself all the time, sharing your struggles, labeling yourself as having ADHD because I don't see myself as ADHD.

25:56

I'm so much more than my ADHD.

25:58

But actually now, you know, more than most of my time is thinking about. Ok, how do I educate others ADHD? How do I talk about ADHD in a positive way? It does take energy away from other areas of my identity. But the reason I do it is because like I said, you know, when yourself or when I meet people who say, you know, I've learned something from reading your experiences or following you. And that started my journey or that made me think about this, that becomes really rewarding.

26:27

I also say it's really important for every advocate to remember that they are so much more than whatever they're advocating for as part of their identity, right?

26:36

And that's something I'm trying my best to do in my free time as well is to remind myself that I'm not just ADHD, I'm not just an ADHD advocate. It's only one side of me.

26:45

It's something I love and adore and want to do, but there's so much more to me.

26:49

Mai Ling

Excellent. I've also had these moments and I don't know if you're, if you've ever had these opportunities recently. But I feel like if I say, oh, it's my ADHD that, that's actually a negative context for me then like, oh, she's not going to get it done or, you know, I thought I could count on her but I can't like, have you, have you, you know, engaged with that type, that side of it?

27:11

Kim

Yeah, definitely. I mean, sometimes when people think I say, oh, that's my ADD, I'm kind of making an excuse for something or so what I've learned to do is to educate them a bit more to say, it's my ADHD right now, my energy is very low. So if you're gonna have this chat with me right now, now's not a good time. So I think for me, I think ADHD is quite a negative word in general. So I try to use less of it in my vocabulary today. So if people don't know, attention hyperactive deficit disorder, it's a very, very negative word. And it's AD it's not an attention deficit.

27:51

It is a difficulty in regulating attention, regulating energy.

27:57

So that the people in the party who kind of studied it kind of named it as a deficit, but we don't have a deficit of attention.

28:03

We actually have an abundance of the, we just struggle to allocate that energy.

28:07

Mai Ling

Right.

28:08

Kim

So in my day to day, I try to limit, you know, only if I feel that it's necessary to mention I have ADHD. And if I do mention it, I'll explain so that the person doesn't perceive it negatively, they build a better understanding of.

28:21

Mai Ling

OK.

28:22

Kim

If she mentions this is ADHD, why does that matter in this context? That's how I try to navigate those negative assumptions when I say, oh, this is my ADHD.

28:31

Mai Ling

Excellent. Well, this has been an amazing talk with you and I can go on all day, but we do have to move on. But before we go, please let us know how can we follow you and plug into all of the resources and support that you have available for us?

28:45

Kim

Oh, no, it's been so wonderful to speak to you again. You're, you're my inspiration.

28:51

Mai Ling

You're mine.

28:53

Kim

Yeah, so I've really enjoyed speaking with you. So I'm very active on linkedin. So if you follow me, it's just Kim To and I have a website which I'm updating a lot more, which is only your flair.com. I'm pretty sure you'll post that somewhere on the links, but that's my website and bear in mind. I didn't put ADHD as my name because I own your flair because when I started it, I realized I wanted to own what's unique about me and I'm not just ADHD so that's my message.

29:26

Mai Ling

Nice. I love it. Well, thank you so much and I'm really excited to watching you continue to grow.

29:31

Kim

Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Thanks for sharing as well.

29:35

Mai Ling

Thank you. 

29:38

James

We hope you enjoyed this episode and invite you to leave us a review on Apple podcasts and Spotify and share the show with people you think will find value from it. This helps the show a lot or have a great guest referral. Reach out to us at X Leaders at gmail.com and if you want exclusive tips on becoming an exceptional leader, deliver straight to your inbox, just go to exceptional leaders.com and sign up for our mailing list.

30:03

Thanks for listening.